Jesus, love and free will

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

So why didn’t God provide this in Eden?

God’s motivation is really quite understandable, and purpose for our lives, if you belong to him, is also intimately involved in it: joy for himself in our love for him and our pride in him as our Father, and joy in us and joy for us in reciprocated familial love.

The original unfallen creation was merely ‘very good’, not perfect:

God’s purpose was and still is to magnify the most valuable thing there is, namely himself (he would be lying if he said otherwise), and to increase and share his joy. He is happy in himself.¹

Father’s intended purpose in creating the world was to was not to create a ‘perfect’ one. His purpose was not thwarted. Since it was a two creations model² from the get-go, the first one was subjected to futility on purpose, from its very start and before death occurred.

The original unfallen creation was merely “very good”, not perfect, since it did not and could not magnify God’s justice, mercy, grace and love through our Lord, Jesus, the Christ. Jesus’ motivation is also explicit and clear, and it was forward looking³: “for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame.” Hebrews 12:2. That joy is us(!), if you have been adopted into his family.

The New Earth will be perfect.

 

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¹ See The Pleasures of God.
² “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 25:34
³ Our motivation should be forward looking, too, toward future grace. See Future Grace.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

So… you believe there will be no dust, no onions, no tear ducts for tears of joy? I think you are taking that passage too literally.

Give me a break, Mitchell. You know perfectly well I was not talking about what you are making ridiculously literal.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

Then… no challenges for any chance of tears of frustration?

Your new earth sound like many portrayals of heaven which sound like the bliss of a druggy high. It does not interest me – if it did I would go with the atheist answer of nonexistence. I look for more life with all the challenges and frustrations of growing and becoming more in an eternal relationship with God – with plenty of tears of every kind.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

Then… no challenges for any chance of tears of frustration?

Not then, but here now!

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

frustration

You should look up the definition – it’s not heavenly. I expect there to be challenges, and fun ones, learning and exploration. Disappointment and frustration? Not so much. You haven’t been reading or thinking well.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Oooh, I’m looking forward to frustration! NOT. More patience though.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Dale

I expect there to be challenges

You cannot have a challenge without the possibility of hurt or failure.

I am with @mitchellmckain The Heaven portrayed as a New Earth would be my vision of Hell. I have no interest in an eternity of eating, cr@pping, and trying to occupy myself.

Richard

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@RichardG

You cannot have a challenge without the possibility of hurt or failure.

Correct. In this life.

@RichardG

an eternity of eating

You wouldn’t have to be eating all the time! Eating (and cooking and cleanup) is largely about fellowship, I would have thought you’d know.

@RichardG

trying to occupy myself

That just makes me think you are not very curious nor creative, and neither can you delight in the existential moment – you know, childlike, like we’re supposed to be. (And don’t forget I’ve been through kidney cancer – albeit very easy, in God’s grace and mercy, and SBO as well recently.)

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Dale

Father’s intended purpose in creating the world was to was not to create a ‘perfect’ one. His purpose was not thwarted. Since it was a two creations model² from the get-go, the first one was subjected to futility on purpose, from its very start and before death occurred.

I find it hard to believe the Creator didn’t want a perfect world. Since my deconstruction and fall away from the faith and then slowly coming back after many internal fights and external events that putted pressure to the relationship with God ,I think God did indeed intended a perfect world from the get go. It just failed . God failed. It’s fine. Satan did get the upper hand on this one ,God took revenge after (trough the crucifixion) .

I think we underestimate Satan’s power here which the bible authors sometimes attribute it in lar with God .

Now about the New Heaven I don’t think it in a literal way either. Certainly not in this earth

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@NickolaosPappas

I find it hard to believe the Creator didn’t want a perfect world.

All I can ask is for you to try and understand the first sentence in next paragraph after what you quoted:

@Dale

The original unfallen creation was merely “very good”, not perfect, since it did not and could not magnify God’s justice, mercy, grace and love through our Lord, Jesus, the Christ. Jesus’ motivation is also explicit and clear, and it was forward looking³: “for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame.” Hebrews 12:2. That joy is us(!), if you have been adopted into his family.

[Troy (T Clark)]

It will be better than you can imagine! more real than this life. Remember God is an actual infinite being, we will continue to discover new potential truths in him for eternity. Endless science and creativity, trials and errors but no evil intent toward ourselves or fellow creatures.

5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5)

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Troy

an eternal body

We have no idea what this body will consist of, both in terms of physicality (or not) or our perception of reality. (and neither did Paul)

Richard

[St.Roymond]

@Dale

Jesus never lost his free will, and being sinless, it should not be overstating it to say that his will was subsumed by love, although there might be a better term.

Or joy – it was for the joy set before Him that He chose the nails and endured the Cross.

@Dale

But he wasn’t always ‘nice’. He was, however, always edifying (@Kendel), and never mean (I’m preaching to myself there). For instance, he didn’t pull punches with respect to some of the teachers and spoke clearly against them, warning about false prophets as well.

He didn’t pull any punches with the money-grubbers in the Temple, either.

Just BTW and FWIW, that comes up in the theory that the Atonement was about defending God’s honor.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

I think often nowadays people confuse directness and honesty with being mean. Like it’s not mean to tell a rapist he’s a rapist and what he did was terrible. That it was very evil and selfish and he deserves to go to jail and hopefully while there he will get rehabilitated. Then I’ve they get out it’s not mean to tell them, because of the shame involved with what you did, even if you changed, you just can’t be trusted in a position such as a teacher, cop or counselor.

I think the same can be said about talking openly about real systems of suffering. Like it’s not mean to tell someone eating a burger that the industry surrounding animals raised for slaughter is very abusive.

It’s also not wrong to point out things like there is no enough access to waterways in America. That dozens of miles of rivers and coasts are blocked off by almost everyone. That the government needs to do more to ensure everyone has access to natural spaces. You can’t just build a private subdivision with serval million dollar houses blocking 8 miles of a river. There should be some access for people to get there.

I think Jesus was mean at times. Calling a bunch of people vipers was mean. But I don’t think just because sometimes your words are mean is an excuse to be a bully. Very different things.

If I saw a child predator talking to some kids in the woods, it’s not evil for me to be mean and yell at him. To tell the kids the kind of monster he is. To shame him for talking inappropriately to kids. To call him what he is may be mean and scary for him, but it’s not evil on my part.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@St.Roymond

Or joy – it was for the joy set before Him that He chose the nails and endured the Cross.

I don’t know whether that’s my favorite verse or not (I cite it often enough ), but it is a very important verse (Hebrews 12:2¹). So we could say present love and future joy were his motivations?

 

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¹ The first part² of it also speaks to paying attention – what we pay attention to is a continuous moral choice that we make, and that couldn’t be more important. It has all kinds of implications about our mood and happiness, responding to temptation and how we converse, among other things. Oh yeah, and remembering the good things God has done for us as individuals and throughout all of history in his providential interventions.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him…
Hebrews 12:2

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² (Can you put a footnote on a footnote? Yes, obviously. ) The latter part of the verse speaks to perseverance:

…who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As the shame and ignominy of the cross did not deter him (let alone its pain!) and because of the sure hope and confidence³ we can have in Jesus, neither should we be deterred by what we are given to endure. (Did I mention that it is an important verse? […I don’t care who wrote Hebrews or when.])

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³ It’s not a maybe or a Pascalian wager.

Continuing the discussion from Monergism versus Synergism:

@Dale

Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?, here: a sure hope and confidence.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@SkovandOfMitaze

I think often nowadays people confuse directness and honesty with being mean

Have you ever been “criticised in Love”? Nine times out of ten it is more than mean. It is judgemental, and this is where we must stop. It is one thing to identify a wrong or an intention, it is another to assume that that intention is always the case. The world is full of vindictive people who will not let a wrong be deemed paid for and forgotten. A child molester will always be a child molester no matter what rehab (and or prison) they have gone through.

Richard

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@SkovandOfMitaze

If I saw a child predator talking to some kids in the woods, it’s not evil for me to be mean and yell at him.

Because of course child predators have yellow and black stripes.

Isn’t there a bit too much confidence in human judgements in what you say? In a corrupt society people can be convicted for things they did not do. Wouldn’t adding on punishments of your own to such injustice be an example of bullying? And what do you know about the circumstances which had this alleged child predator talking to children? I can well believe that someone wrongly convicted would avoid children for the rest of his life, as sad as that may be, but children can be cruel, can’t they? So let’s add insult to injury and leap to conclusions whenever we can, why don’t we?

@RichardG

A child molester will always be a child molester no matter what rehab (and or prison) they have gone through.

For the police they are. People do not change very often. BUT… as police they are restricted to limits of the law with oversight.

…rough waters…

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@mitchellmckain

…rough waters

Don’t get me wrong, I am not one who holds onto past transgressions, but society as a whole does. It is what makes the forgiveness of God so unusual. For Him, it would seem, the past can really be forgotten.

Richard

[knor (Kai)]

@RichardG

I am with @mitchellmckain The Heaven portrayed as a New Earth would be my vision of Hell. I have no interest in an eternity of eating, cr@pping, and trying to occupy myself.

Our ideas about the life after resurrection and especially after the final judgement are (necessarily?) filtered through our culture and experiences of current life. That leads to a diversity of assumptions and pictures about the future life.

We have very limited information in the biblical scriptures and our interpretation of these pieces of information are ‘colored’ because of our background. The cultural background is very old, with ‘christianized’ ideas adopted from Greek philosophy mixed with earlier Hebrew interpretations. Recent interpretations that prevail in countries like USA may make our interpretations even more skewed.

Anyhow, I believe that the new life will be something better than we can even imagine. If it would be just a continuation of the life we live now, that kind of eternity would be a hell for most believers, as you write. I believe that our Father can give us a pleasant surprise in the future, after the resurrection.