Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

I also agree – mostly. Because morality only has objective elements to it, but cannot be purely objective. What is the difference? Understanding that morality does have objective elements to it means that science can HELP in determining the proper moral course in many situations – as it in fact HAS done.

Selfish persons are not interested in morality, just getting their way.

No one is suggesting that we should robotically follow a moral compass, just that there is a moral compass that we need to follow if we are moral persons. The “fun” is the discussion as to how the moral compass is best applied.

Why would God reward those who hate him with eternity in a heavenly paradise?

Why would God want to spend eternity with those who hate him? That would be like the nation of Israel offering citizenship to Adolf Hitler and all the other Nazis and assorted Jew-haters!

Why would those who hate God want to spend eternity with him? (Hey, maybe that’s what hell is – spending eternity with someone you hate!)

1Cor 2:9 says “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.” I can’t find any such promise made to those who hate God – surprise, surprise.

Rev 21:27 says, ”But there shall by no means enter it (Heaven) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

Romans 1 says it is “God’s decree” that “haters of God” are “worthy of death” – that doesn’t sound like a one-way ticket to Heaven to me.

The description I offered is actually the Catholic description, which makes a lot more sense than the strict, narrow-minded, bigoted legalism that certain Protestants offer. Salvation is about love of God and doesn’t belong only to those who happen upon the Christian formula.

Without an objective, universal standard of morality, morality is subjective and can be literally anything you want it to be - in which case, no one has the right to impose their morality on anyone else or judge anyone else’s morality as immoral (wrong).

Therefore, no one has the right to judge Hitler’s murder of six million Jews as immoral (wrong), for example.

Will your “loving” God will reward even the worst evil with eternal life in Heaven?

Except you don’t “know” Jesus has already been given eternal life. How could you? You won’t be granted eternal life until after you die and are judged by Christ on the Last Day!
What you claim to “know” is not knowledge at all, but merely a belief (based on a false, unscriptural doctrine).

If you “know” and are certain Christ has already given you your ticket to Heaven, you have contradicted the 20+ Scriptures in the NT that describe eternal salvation as a “hope”. If you “know”, then eternal life is no longer a “hope”, is it?

At what point did Jesus give you your ticket to Heaven? The moment you came to Christ? One week later? A year later? When?

Paul says, “I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes” (1Cor 4),
but you say, “I judge myself, no need to wait until the Lord comes and judges me”.

So says you. David Koresh probably said the same thing. You can entertain your “already saved” delusion all you like, but it won’t make any difference when Judgement Day rolls around. You will be judged by Christ just like everyone else and Christ won’t care what you think.

You are confusing a promise with the fulfillment of that promise. Furthermore, the promise is conditional. First you have to fulfill the conditions (see James 2:24), which is a life-long process; then the promise is fulfilled only when Christ judges you on the Last Day and grants you eternal life.

It is called a sure hope in multiple places, not a maybe, and there is a lot about confidence, too.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

…being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 1:6

I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.
2 Timothy 1:12

We are subjective, because we cannot be objective on all matters. That is why we must rely on God’s rules, because he is the only one capable of seeing all and judging all.

Nope. We are to judge what we do and who we listen to. As I said, anyone who thinks God is telling them to do something destructive today is most likely delusional or possessed/oppressed because he would do no such thing.

There are no conditioned reflexes in Heaven. All are saved from their helpless propensities. Even you. The faithfulness of Christ has no limit.

As everyone here demonstrates.

God spoke to Moses face to face, and since then he has only spoken to prophets through visions and inspiration, but mostly through the written word he left us.

And isn’t that what I said? Look up Teshuva (Hebrew).

I don’t think so, but I’d like to see how you think it can.

One of these things is not like the others. Remember the jingle?

Oh… so you don’t believe Jesus is God… I see.

What is important is that you understand.

Easiest thing in the world to show. Many many times science has showed when something is harmful to people. Thus revealing many things that people were doing that is wrong and immoral.

I guess that depends on whether you want to: lie for Jesus, revive the slavery in the Bible, make money for your church and evangelism, or spreads your god’s will of death among the people.

Mark 10:17 (NIV2011)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

[After they established that Jesus came from God and obeying the moral law does not lead to led to eternal life.]

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

@Edgar, I do not see where Jesus made the promise of eternal life conditional on good behavior and effective only at the end of life, because He did not.

Eternal life is a free gift from God, which cannot be purchased even by selling all that you have and giving the money to the poor. Eternal life and salvation are the same thing. They are living with God Who is eternal. Paul at on time says that he has two choices, 1) to die and go home to be with God, which is great, or 2) live and continue to serve God, which is also great, until Jesus called him to go home he would continue to live and serve God.

God the Father gives the gift of Eternal Life to all Who believe on Jesus Christ. God also gives the gifts of Faith and the Holy Spirit. These are unconditional in that they cannot be earned, but they must be accepted and used. Faith without works is dead, just as the Spirit without works. When we are saved we receive faith, the Spirit, and Love from God. Therefore we do not have to depend on our own faith, but on God’s power of salvation.

Subjective doesn’t mean arbitrary. What humans want and need as a society and culture is pretty consistent, with minor variations here and there. This is because humans share a lot of the same emotions, and we have the ability to empathize.

Why not? Why can’t we use the commonly held subjective morality as a basis for law?

That would be the case if objective morality was true and Hitler claimed that God told him to do it.

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I don’t see it that way. Selfish people still feel guilt, and they expect others to treat them morally.

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Why can’t we rely on our subjective sense of morality? If God commands us to do something that goes against everything we consider to be moral, why should we follow that command?

Yep. You are using your own subjective morality to determine if something is moral, and upon judging it immoral you conclude that God would not command it.

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If we don’t, then we put our judgment over his. Who is God and who isn’t?

And science (including medical science) has done harm to many, either mistakenly believing they were doing good, or despite knowing it was wrong.

That is opinion, and a bad one. What science has shown is that masks don’t stop viruses. That is why we have never worn them before, despite the basic technology being around for at least 100 years.

Incorrect. It is certainly not my opinion that god’s will is to spread death among people. But you have certainly clarified why you think that one doesn’t go with the others. There is very little way to know which way alternate reality people will go on kinds of issues including basic scientific facts like the geometry of the earth.

Incorrect. Their effectiveness is the reason why people working in medicine have been using them for over 100 years.

Sorry, I am not plugged into your lying for Jesus network.

Is this part of it too?

When you insist on oversimplifying reality you can prove almost anything.

Masks are not guaranteed to stop the transmission of all viruses. How much they help, very much depends on the virus. They are certainly no help against Salmonella. It also depends a great deal on how you are using the mask. Effective if you maintain your distance? Yes. Effective if you are hugging and kissing people? No. And it has been found that by reducing the amount of an initial exposure they can help reduce the impact of some viruses even when they are transmitted.

Anyway outside your lying for Jesus network we find…


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Flat-earthers are so intolerant - I got thrown out of the local branch of the Flat Earth Society simply for suggesting that the earth might be a little bit curved.

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I got thrown out of the Tourette’s Society. They told me to

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“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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