A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!

There is no ‘if’ for those who already are his children. There may be, however, those who think they are but indeed are not.

I agree that “we are already children of God” in the sense that we are called and ordered to become Jesus Christ himself. But what does this mean?

While we dwell on earth we have to struggle to live according to this vocation, and avoid turning back to worthless principles, as we are prompted in

Galatians 4:9
But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

Your true name is the name of the place in heaven which is reserved for you (according to Revelation 2:17). As far as you identify yourself with the person that will forever have this name, you can say you are already child of God.

However, you can thwart your vocation to get this name: Another will take this place and you will remain outside; he will become someone and you will be none, a self without name forever. As far as this possibility is open, you are not already child of God.

Only after the last judgment we will eternally be one body and one spirit with Christ, and thereby become fully identified with the Son of God.

If you aspire to become like Christ, and by the Holy Spirit reach “the relation of divine filiation” and cry “Abba Father”, then

you do NOT aspire to become God the Father, but

you aspire to become one with the person of God the Son (according to Revelation 22: 4), as “the relation of divine filiation” is the Person of God the Son. And in this sense you aspire to become God.

In other words, if you pursue to be known by God the Father so that you can call out “Abba Father”, you are pursuing theosis, according to the teaching of the Holy Fathers of the Church.

Nope, sorry. I already am a child of God.

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I agree, as far as you remain without sin till your death. In such a case you will be one with Jesus Christ after the last judgement, and have a name lasting forever. So, as an individual self, you could say you are already now the person sharing this name, and therefore a child of God.

By contrast, if you sin and do not repent before your death, after the last judgement you will remain an individual self, but without name forever; you will not become the person you are called to become (Revelation 2:17 and 22:4), you will be none. And then, looking backwards in time, your story will be that you were called to become child of God but thwarted this vocation.

I hope very much that through God’s mercy the first narrative will apply to you and me. However, I think I am not entitled to claim that “I am sinless and will remain impeccable till my death”.

Do you think you are empowered to claim you are unsullied and will certainly remain impeccable till the end of your sojourn on earth? If yes, you are claiming that you are God already now!

Nope, I will sin (I wish not), but my adoption is secure. My Father has signed the papers. Who do you think is going to annul them?

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A couple of threads covered the issue fairly thoroughly: Monergism versus Synergism and Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

You, if you sin and do not repent!

John 5: 29
those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

How do you cope with these two preceding statements in Scripture?

When you claim “my adoption is secure”,
are you claiming that even if you do what is evil you will rise to eternal life?

If YES, you are assuming that whatever you do, you are accountable to none!

This amounts to claim that you are God already now (long before the last judgment!) and never will be judged.

A dangerous way of thinking, as history sadly proves again and again!

A loving and loved adopted child is always sorry when they sin. If they aren’t, it is distinctly possible and maybe likely they aren’t truly adopted. (There are those, ‘mere professors’, who profess to be Christians, but aren’t. That is why there are severe warnings and mandates in scripture to test yourself and examine your thoughts and deeds.)
 
         The Christian’s Confidence

   3/5 p.m.
 

Say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

“I am thy salvation” – not “I will be.” That too, of course, but already now.

Your wording reveals that you are describing things from the perspective of someone who is in heaven after the last judgement, and tracing back the story line of this someone to an “individual self” now.

I think your approach is fitting, since:

What is real and what is true can coherently be defined only by what matters for eternal happiness.

In other words, the true and significant name of the “individual self” you feel to be now, is actually not ‘Dale’ but the name you will receive when you get to heaven (Revelation 2:17) and the name of Jesus Christ you will have in your front (Revelation 22:4). These two names define your true personal identity.

Accordingly, it is important to distinguish between this person you are called to become (your true personal identity), and the “individual self” you feel to be now.

When you claim “I already am a child of God”, by “I already am” you are referring to and identifying yourself with this person you are called to become, and then you can fittingly say that ‘you’ (i.e.: the person you are called to become) participate in the relation of “divine filiation” and are a child of God.

By contrast, if you look at things from the perspective of the “individual self” you presently feel to be, then you do not have yet a true name, you are not yet someone, a person. Accordingly, you should rather state:

  • I am called to become a child of God the Father, through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit;

  • I acknowledge that I am capable of sinning and invoke God’s help to avoid sinning;

  • I trust on God’s grace to repent when I sin: “I am thy salvation” (Psalm 35:3).

In conclusion:

As far as you dwell on earth there is NO certainty that you will always sorry when you sin, NO certainty that the “individual self” you feel to be now will become the person in heaven you are called to be.

If I would sin and not repent, the “individual self” I feel to be now would refuse entering into the relation of “divine filiation” and becoming one person with the person of God the Son; I would remain alone, have no name, be none (an individual of no importance) forever.

I think you are sidestepping and have some things you need to unlearn. There is assurance now.

and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 1:22

You are contradicting yourself, as you acknowledge the possibility that there are individuals now who “aren’t truly adopted”:

If you want escape the contradiction you have to distinguishing between “the individual self” you feel to be now, and the person you are called to become after the last judgement. It is this person, who is the truly child of God. The Spirit is given to “the individual self” you feel to be now as “a pledge of what is to come”: As far as you open your heart to the work of the Spirit, you are acting as the person you are called to be after the last judgement, and making a name for yourself that lasts forever.

I made no contradiction, you are concluding something I did not say and conveniently leaving out what I did say.

 
You want only known and confessed sin to be forgivable. What if you have a sinful thought and then die or are killed immediately? Oops, no redemption for him! Do you think it is impossible to have unknown, and thus unconfessable, sin? Then you are a better man than David, a man after God’s own heart. Psalm 19:12
 

Again, I have no contradiction to escape. I am truly a child of God now, but not a sinless one.

 
I am wondering why you deny this:

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and this:

I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.

I do not deny at all. What is more: I confirm!

The context of your quotation is the following (2 Timothy 1:8-13):

8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me, His prisoner. Instead, join me in suffering for the gospel by the power of God.

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy calling , not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

10 And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel,

11 to which I was appointed as a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher.

12 For this reason, even though I suffer as I do, I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day.

13 Hold on to the pattern of sound teaching you have heard from me, with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

14 Guard the treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us .…

Jesus Christ has saved you and called you to a holly calling, but to become the person you are called to be, you have “to hold on to the pattern of sound teaching” and “guard the treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit”.

It is important to realize that now (as long as you dwell on earth) you do NOT yet have a name; you cannot actually say “I am someone”: you are “an individual self” yearning to become a person. This you will definitely become after the last judgement, when you receive a name (Revelation 2:17) and are one person with God the Son; when you have the name of the Lamb on your forehead (Revelation 22:4).

But as long as you dwell on earth you are able to revoke the help of the Holy Spirit and choose to remain a mere “individual self” forever, without personal identity and name, a none outside God’s knowledge.

Once again, only after the last judgement you can say I am someone. For the time being you can only say I am called and struggling to become a person (child of God the Father), through the unity with God the Son, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, but that does not mesh with reality. I will get a new and probably more meaningful name, according to Revelation and known only to me (and my Lord), but I will not gain or lose any personhood. I can actually say “I am someone” now, someone for whom Jesus died.

You certainly appear to have missed the point.
 

There is nothing reversible about my adoption and no power that can dissolve it. What part of “nor anything else in all creation” don’t you get? That includes the adoptee. It does make it imperative to be sure that you are adopted, and assurance is available. But we’ve already been over that.

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Once again, real and true is only what matters for eternal happiness. Without a dimension of the celestial, all things are ephemeral and arbitrary, and personhood is not achieved.

Only an eternal being can be said to be someone. Personhood makes sense only in the relational realm of the Holy Trinity.

When you say “ ‘I am someone’ now, someone for whom Jesus died”, you are implicitly assuming that at the moment of your death you (as an ‘individual self’) will accept the grace Jesus won for us on the Cross, and thereby become someone who has a meaningful name forever, reach true personhood in the union with the person of God the Son.

When you say ‘I am someone’ you are in fact referring to someone in heaven after the last judgement. As far as you dwell on earth you should rather say ‘I am called to be someone’.

In summary, the final state of beings after the last judgement can be described as follows:
In hell there is none; to be in hell means to be none, an “individual self” without personhood.
All who are someone, all persons, are in heaven.

I guess I don’t need to talk to you whatever it is any more and am wasting my time, since you whatever it is is no one and not a person. A block wall is a good simile. It does produce a lot of verbal junk, though. :slightly_smiling_face: (I don’t think I can get in trouble with the moderators for insulting something that is not a someone, right?)

I dare to repeat: You should not feel obliged “to waste your time” by writing comments in this thread. However, if you keep posting it may be wise you take time to read more carefully the comments you answer to before replying.

What I claim is the following:

As far as we dwell on earth we all humans are called (by God) to become someone, a person, child of God forever after the last judgement.

It is this call, what endows each human being with special dignity, and make that all humans are “brothers and sisters”.

Now, by acknowledging that “you are insulting me”, you admit you are insulting a brother.

Even if you “do not get in trouble with the moderators”, you may “get in trouble” with Jesus :slightly_smiling_face::

Matthew 5: 22

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Brothers and sisters are each someone now. You, apparently, are not a someone.