Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

Not likely. The first time he crossed the line and broke any scripture, he would have disqualified himself as our savior and he would have died a criminal.

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According to the Jewish and Roman authorities of the time, that’s exactly what happened. And pretty much for the reason you gave … “playing fast and loose with the law and prophets” they basically said.

The difference is, he did right in the sight of God, or he would have remained in the grave and we would all be doomed to destruction.

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Excuse me? OK, ambiguity. No He NEVER sinned by the letter or the spirit of Torah at the time. In hindsight, anachronistically one can debate that and fail. He just arrogated the Bible. With justification. He took it by the scruff of the C6th BCE neck and dragged it in to service. He was perfect, incidentally, because prince trumps toad. Not because we need God to murder Him instead of us. Coveting doesn’t make you a criminal does it? Or working on the sabbath? So, He celebrated the Passover before the Passover.

Criminals are made by breaking man’s laws. Breaking God’s laws makes us sinners and worthy of death.

As per the guidelines of this discourse, this is something you can keep to yourself.


So working on Saturday to keep up with the Joneses, is worthy of death?

Yes. That is breaking at least two laws, honoring the Sabbath and coveting your neighbor’s goods. It’s also rebellion, as it’s saying what we want is more important than what God wants for us. Without grace, we could never be good enough to not deserve death for our actions.

So let’s see if I got this right.

Let’s pretend that just a few minutes ago I sincerely asked God to forgive my sins, and God did so. I get in my car and start driving down the street next to my house, and as I am driving I see that one of my neighbors just bought a brand new sports car that I am a bit jealous of. Right at that moment I plow into the back of a garbage truck and I die. Do I burn in hell forever?


No, you have it wrong in a couple of ways.

Remember the grace I mentioned? It also includes mercy. Now, if you continue to live sinfully and not try to learn, much less follow God’s word, you might want to question whether you were actually saved and re-examine your life. If you don’t know the parable of the sower and the seeds, read it.

God will not give immortality to man just to punish him forever. When a soul hits the lake of fire it will be destroyed forever.

I think not as many will go there as people think anyway. We can’t see hearts and know who is saved. We can see the fruit and know who lives their faith. Not all believers will be the bride. Some will be the friends of the bride, some the guests, and some not allowed into the feast.


So how long can you live sinfully and still be ok? A couple days? Months?

“But he loves you.”–George Carlin

There are more Hindus than many people think there are. If working on a Saturday gets you destroyed, adding idol worship and the worship of other gods to the list probably isn’t going to improve your odds.


Put it this way. If you aren’t constantly worried about how much you sin, it may be too late or you’ve grown cold. There are always new ways to learn how to live as God desires.

Yes, but he is just and will honor your choices.

Fortunately, God sees all sin the same. The worst person we can think of can change and the best people can be evil in their heart. We are all in rebellion until he changes our hearts toward him.

Is this how you would want your own children or grandchildren to “love” you? Constantly cowering in fear because they know they’ll never live up to grand-dad’s perfect expectations … and furthermore having been warned that grandpa will smite them unless they get things just right (according to grandpa’s very strict formulas about what to believe and what to do).


Still a little off. Gotta remember mercy. Every sin we have committed or will commit was paid for by Jesus if we are really saved. We just can’t use grace and mercy to think we can do whatever we please. If we are saved and continue in sin, at some point God will stop protecting us and let us die from our choices, even though our souls are saved.

We have much lower standards for ourselves than God, but what if someone’s child grows up and becomes a mass murderer? Should the parents hide him and protect him from his actions? Or should they turn him over to the police and justice system for punishment? In this instance, consider that there is no doubt of the son’s guilt.

Parents who truly love their children would see them freed from all such sin. Justice and Love turn out to be one and the same thing. The child (even a murderer) must face the consequences for their actions. To protect them from justice is to give them over to injustice. Whatever punishment or rehabilitation is necessary to accomplish that … the loving parent would spare no expense in order to have their child back again. As long as it takes. Our human love / capacity for forgiveness may give out, we being limited as we are - we probably won’t last even close to seventy times seven and would probably write off our best friends, maybe even our own child long before that point … but God, on the other hand …

[The parable of the unmerciful servant helps us shore up our own frailties at this point, though; as we ask ourselves, how many times do I want God to be willing to forgive me before he would just permanently “consign me over to the torturers”. And the answer I give to that is the same answer I seek to apply to my fellow servants. We can be thankful that God is infinitely higher than any of us in these regards.]


According to Jesus, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it. Few saved vs many condemned.

James 4:17 NIV If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Is this willful sin okay for a believer? Also, what is the difference between living in sin vs sinning occasionally? And how does it work when a sinner also does good works? For example, someone who does missionary and also evangelizing for Jesus but also commits sexual sins. Do the ongoing sins prove the person is not saved or do the good works prove genuine salvation? Where’s that balance?

What would you say? Good question… I mean about the man’s heart.

I think the New Testament makes life a sin. Consider Jesus teaching in Matthew where you ought not resist an evil doer, or give to everyone who asks of you or in Luke 14:33 teaching to give up all possessions. This makes normal life impossible. How does a normal person even “strive” to do these things without lying to themselves?

Sin is what robs us of life. Rescuing us from our sin is what makes life possible. The whole Billie Joel schtick about “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints” only shows that Billy Joel doesn’t know a real party when he sees one. There is rarely more delightful (and delighted) laughter than when one is fellowshipping (partying) with the saints. Yes - they are willing to mourn with each other and everybody else too - in a heartbeat as may be called for. But their joy is never held hostage to all that which would try to rob us of any lasting joy. And evil is not fun or edifying or wholesome or life-giving - as every one of us can attest during those times when we’ve given in to that. Sure, some of it gives immediate, or surface pleasure by mimicking good things that God has created, but the immediate sweet taste turns out to be bitter fruit in all the life to follow. Wisdom is known by her fruit.


“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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