But isn’t that what both Jesus and Paul said?
Oh, wait…
Is that a quote from the book, “Famous Single Guys of the Bible?” Of course, you are joking. Proof texting I;m sure could support both the position of getting married and staying single. In the overall context of the Bible it seems to me that it comes down to the individual and their situation. Relationships are difficult at best, and perhaps the restricted and constrained nature of the marriage relationship reflects the dangers of what happens when those constrained are not in place, and to some extent is God’s way of protecting us against those dangers.
Yes. Self-destructive habits refusing the challenge of life to learn from our mistakes makes life into a living hell no matter where we go.
We are not machines designed by a divine watchmaker. We are not simply what God has made us. We are participants in our own creation.
One mistake can certainly start the ball rolling in the wrong direction. It is the nature of bad habits – much easier to start than to stop. As a preacher have ever taken the time to help people with real problems???
??? What are you talking about? LOL You expect of voice from the sky warning you of the fact of life that mistakes have consequences for your life? ???
??? LOL I think most people are aware of the realities of life that their choices have consequences.
You have as bizarre an understanding of what is evil as you do of Christianity and rationality. And the way you keep jumping to conclusions and putting people in your theological boxes makes discussion with you impossible. I agree that there is much in traditional Christian teaching which is outrageous and unacceptable but goodness doesn’t require believing exactly as you do and discarding all the same portions of Christianity that you do. I certainly reject the common Christian ideas of God that make him megalomaniac, purist, hard hearted, controlling, wrathful, and sadistic. I reject the idea which make Christianity into a mafia-like protection racket to pay for protection from God, or makes Christianity into some kind black blood magic necromancy. But you go too far in rejecting the things of Christianity which describe the basic realities of life itself leaving you with nothing but a pure fantasy.
I think it is evil to preach lies just because you don’t like the truth. And the truth is that actions have consequences affecting not only you but future generations. This is irrefutable. It is the nature of life. Like I said before there is only one thing which makes the creation of life moral and that is when you intend to love the beings which you have brought to life. How you react in such an extreme way to such a basic fact about life explains a lot about your attitude towards evolution also – refusing to accept realities you simply don’t like. Well… I think the objective of preaching is not to push some fantasy dream world which makes people feel good but about helping them to deal with the real world.
The reason I see some form of ‘original sin’ as helpful is that it acknowledges that sin isn’t just personal. It’s not just about how we fail and if only we tried harder we would be better. There’s something structural about us as creatures and people that predisposes us to often choose the wrong thing and hurt others. It’s in the culture we grow up in, and it’s also in the biological baggage within us that’s accumulated from the first organisms.
So none of us run through life from a pristine starting line where any stumble could only be blamed on our bad choices. Without removing that blame, we can also see the external and internal pressures that shape our choices without themselves being chosen. In this case, salvation needs to do more than cancel the charges against us. We need rescue from what, on our own, is hopeless. We need to be changed, not just a clean slate, otherwise we’ll mess up the clean slate as much as the last one.
In the Eden story, I don’t see an explanation of how evil started or sin started. I see humans facing temptation and weakness and ignorance and inevitably failing. It’s our story rather than the story of the couple who doomed us. But hopefully it’s just our first chapters.
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That much is clear.
I have one question for now. Do you believe in OSAS?
It might explain a few things.
Richard
We had a couple of good conversations about that while you were on your hiatus. @Edgar, @mitchellmckain, some others and I were involved here and here. That first one is longish, so you might want to skip down to where @Edgar and I were in conversation with each other, and don’t forget Mitch. 
I Couldn’t get a real grip of where everybody stood other than @Edgar seemed to be against it.
Certainly the original Jewish sacrificial system worked on a one sin to one sacrifice principle and Christ kept telling people not to sin again, all of which seems to belie any notion of people having to sin or being unable not to.
For the record I do not accept OSAS.
Richard
Take your time. Although you could start with this, which was cited at least once: The Christian’s Confidence.
Whether you want to call it Original Sin or just some unavoidable predilection, any notion that we are forced to sin or be sinful goes against the idea of why Christ had to die for us. If His salvation was necessary then it becomes a direct consequence of God’s flawed creation. And if that flaw is human-generated then humans have much too much power to be able to overturn a perfect creation.
And the only way that Christ could overturn a system that declares spiritual death would be for His act to give spiritual life. And once that life has been given it would have to continue otherwise it is pointless=OSAS. WHich is why I cannot accept the ideal of spritual death and the consequence that would mean perpetual sinning because of it. If Christ restores spiritual life than afterwards we would not sin… = OSAS. And clearly that is not the case because Christians do sin, SO either the restoration is not automatic, or it is very temporary and needs perpetual renewal.
As far as I understand it, the offer of forgiveness is based on the condition at the time, and any sins afterward will need new forgiveness. It is not a done deal. Nor is it some sort of protection against future transgressions.
Any notion that involves humans being unable not to sin makes Salvation a gun to the head deal, not one of free will and choice. And it is unfair in relation to anyone who lived prior to Christ or who either has never heard of, or rejects the teachings of Christians. (for whatever reason, including it being done badly!)
Perhaps some people ought to read the whole Bible instead of never getting past Genesis 3.
Richard
Please read the two cited discussions carefully, at least paying attention to the contributions and replies of the involved parties mentioned. (Did you look at the list?)
Nope. Very strong opponent. I consider the question about whether you can lose your salvation to be very improper and incompatible with faith, reeking of entitlement. Salvation is something God does and is never something which you can own.
Not disagreeing, What are your thoughts on Ro 8:20 saying he is the author of frustration? From personal study, I believe the frustration is naivete, the separation of knowledge making us all prone to error. Including Lucifer, not knowing the outcome misconceived before Eve.
I believe Eve may have been punished worse because her sin was the same as Lucifers, to be like God.
I would like to hear your thoughts on Ro and Naivete. I’ve personally named the tree Naivete as it has a very good and needed gift as well.
My first thought is, what translation are you using???
Romans 8:18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Perhaps you would like to rephrase your question in this context.
About frustration and naivete I would say that there are many kinds of frustration. I think God has been frustrated and it is not because of any naivete.
??? How can being like God be a sin ??? Really?
The problem wasn’t actually being like God but assuming the authority of God without the wisdom of God. Now this is a problem you can see plenty of in human history… with people given or assuming divine authority with no wisdom to give it any substance.
You make a heck of a lot more sense when you speak about what YOU believe rather than stuffing a load of nonsense into the mouths of other people.
Yes we have too much power. I would think that is crystal clear. Our power to destroy the world is quite obvious. We were made in the image of God to be His children, for an eternal relationship with no end to what God has to give and no end to what we can receive from Him.
And yet, the rest of the vast universe will not even notice that we exist. So the power God has given us certainly has considerable limits.
Nonsense. Life = freedom to choose. The life Christ brings can only return us somewhat to the state of Adam and Eve, faced once again with the choice between life and death. NOT equal OSAS.
It is not automatic. It is long, painful, and very difficult. Ask anyone with a substance abuse problem.
Indeed! Perhaps you should.
First an intro then, I hold to no doctrines or translations because I have very little to no memory. A useful gift. If I hold any consistency to anything it is because I had to discover and verify it each time, over and over. I developed a strong ability for discernment to compensate. I am able to hold onto meanings and concepts that I’ve beat to death, not the translation. This is also why I am asked you as I see someone analytical, versed and look past tabu’s of doctines. I look at things from all sides, that’s what I do and thought you may have a unique perspective on what I see.
I also seem to remember things many others struggle over as empathy was my second gift. Thank goodness I can’t remember the trauma of others.
Rephrased:
I believe the “futility” is naivete, the separation of knowledge making us all prone to error. Including Lucifer, not knowing the outcome misconceived before Eve.
Ro 8:20 says “the creation was subjected”. Even if on multiple occasions as you commented, I am interested in the initial subjection. The initial futility appears to start with Licifer who receives a similar fate. What allowed his futility, the ability to misconceive was his naivete, not knowing the outcome beforehand, not realizing his mistake. Naivete is also supported with the concept that falsness has no power in the light of the truth. Because Lucifer did not know the outcome, he acted. A natural progression of sin.
Your thoughts on God being the author of naivete, the separation of knowledge in which there is no sin in itself, but naivete provides the foundation to misconceive. I’ll stop short.
Good, I mispoke as this was something I just thought of. I do see Lucifers desire to rule in place of God a sin, but I don’t see wanting to be like God a sin. agree.
I had seen the end of your prior discussion before asking but see you picked up in a new thread. Best if you’re not going back and forth so no rush.
I am also new here and limited on posts. Give me a like if you want, I may get a badge. grin. Thanks for your thoughts.
I am not going to rehash our discussion of two years ago (you brought up ‘entitlement’ there, too), but being birthed, as in born again, is not something you own* nor is it entitlement. It is irreversible, however, as are the adoption papers indelibly signed in eternity by a powerful hand, never to be undone.
*It is something you can ‘own’ in the sense of recognizing its reality and application to yourself. You can only feel sorry for those Christians who are always worrying about the permanence of their condition with respect to their Father in heaven. We do need to test ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith, however, but that was discussed as well.
My theology is not based on Genesis 3. Yours appears to be only based on Genesis 3.
Do you believe there is such a person as an innocent? Someone who cannot sin because they do not have the capacity to understand good and evil?
Do you think. perhaps, that the natural urge for self-protection or self-interest is the cause of sinning? Which would make sinning innate? IOW is self-interest a sin? (Maybe a bad habit?)
Self-protection/interest would seem to be hard-wired into all life including humanity so it must be a part of creation. and a deliberate aspect from God. If so, how can it be sinful in any way? (Unless sin was always part of the creation God intended)
You seem to have jumped here.
I was suggesting that anyone who does not recognise, or understand God and/or spirituality, would not be aware of the penalty you are claiming. Why should they?
A child, who is learning about the world, will make mistakes and you seem to think that in this period those mistakes make them become spiritually dead and because of it making all adults automatically spiritually dead? (perhaps?)
So, perhaps, it is not the mistake that causes a sin, but the decision to “risk” consequences that can be predetermined? And it might be possible to technically not sin if the outcome is unexpected or beyond their foreknowledge?
IOW you are viewing more sins that actually occur when you are assessing the sinful nature of the world as a whole (Which seems to be your starting point) And humanity is not as sinful as you claim. (Not that you have any right to sit in judgment over humanity)
Richard
I am intruiged. How can sin be anything other than personal? What is your definition of sin?
Richard
Yes, we shouldn’t put responsibility on people that exceeds their capacity.
I do think that instincts that serve a good purpose can lead to sin, especially when we make those instincts ultimate. To use an extreme example, an instinct for self-preservation, taken to an extreme, may see every other person as a threat to be eliminated. It’s not that self-preservation is a bad thing, but being dominated by our instincts without higher reasoning is a shame for those capable of such reasoning.
I think sex is hard-wired into life as well, yet it’s also possible to sin sexually. I see no reason why something created by God should be impossible to misuse. To the contrary, sins generally deform a created good.
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Hmm, I wonder… do you think there is a place for puritanism in this modern world?
You still seem reluctant to define sin. Is sin directly related to God? (or against God?)
Perhaps we also need a definition of good?
Richard