Genesis Movie Trailer. An Exciting-Looking Film Forthcoming From Our Friends At AIG!


(Phil) #29

Well, I’m afraid we are all guilty of arrogance and insensitivity at times, so don’t think we can hand out any prizes. But, I think those of us who are in the Biologos camp tend to be more secure and less threatened by discussion, leading to less defensive posturing.

We as humans tend to internalize our beliefs, and an attack on those beliefs threatens our very identity. We need to be aware and sensitive to our brothers and sisters in Christ as well as those who express no belief, as they suffer real pain in the discussion ar times, and many here bear the scars of conflict.

Well, that is sketchy, but a start. What are your thoughts on the subject?


#30

I think it depends on the audience. If you want to know what I believe, I will tell you the truth as it is to me. But if you believe something different, that would be pretty disrespectful for me to claim you believe in a lie, especially if I am going to then later attempt to convince you of my truth.

The only truth I will claim is the goodness, love, and glory of God. Anything else can be quite subjective and debatable. But even then, I would not attempt to convince someone by first telling them, everything they spent there life learning and living has been a lie.

Paul used the “unknown god” of the Greeks in Acts 17 to relate and share the gospel. He didn’t stand in front of all of them and call them liars or claim their person held in high esteem lied to them.

My guess would be because they are Christians, mature in their faith and person, and though we all enjoy and have a God given passion for the sciences and knowledge, we know that is life is so much more, and there are so much more important things than pridefully displaying our truth. Look at the top of the forum:

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

Full of grace, and seasoned with salt.

And as @jpm said, more secure and less threatened is a huge reason. If your firm foundation in the truth of God can’t be shaken, there is no grasping for a different foundation clinging to yours as it rocks.

It’s not about how smart we are or how great the knowledge we have is. Some might be blessed with great knowledge and truths from God. But it is more important to shiwnGod’s love and give God the glory, than it is to be correct.

I think AIG means well, but I think they think they need to prove the literal Bible interpretation which will prove God’s existence and convert people. I don’t remember Jesus ever doing this.

@J.E.S No mean-spirit perceived.


(Jonathan) #31

@jpm
That’s the funny thing about pride…The “I am the humblest person in this room” effect ;).

It seems to me that some on this forum have adopted a rather defensive posture, but that may well be (and probably is) “perceived tone” a.k.a “the curse of the online debate forum” again. What leads you to believe that young earth creationists are less secure?

P.S: (This is even sketchier than yours)…Your thoughts?


(Jonathan) #32

The rest of the post is probably worthy of a like, but would you mind expounding on this point?

Thank you. Some things bear repeating. :wink:


(Christy Hemphill) #33

I think you make a good point about the fact that claiming to know something true is not an inherently prideful position. If it was, what would be the point in seeking truth at all, if finding it is automatically going to make you an arrogant jerk?

I would say the difference between the tone/orientation at AIG and the tone/orientation here (ideally at least :confounded:) is that AIG does not seem to be very concerned about the pursuit of truth as an ongoing journey. They present themselves as the sole possessors of truth, and then they treat that possession as something that must be defended in a very combative way. Go on their website and count how many times they use war or conflict based images or metaphors in their description of their work and mission. It all about defending truth/Scripture/Christianity from attack, truth/Scripture/Christianity being assaulted, equipping people with the proper fortifications, agents of the enemy, drawing battle lines, rescuing people who have been taken captive by lies, etc. “Truth” the way they use the word is something they have already decided they have nailed down and the only way anyone else gets access to any is by buying everything they are selling.

On the other hand, it seems to me that old earth ministries like RTB, and EC sites like this one are more about the search for truth and equipping others on their search for truth. Each group would say it is on the right track and others aren’t and be ready to defend its perspectives, but truth is presented more as a goal on a continuing course than a castle that is already occupied and needs to be defended against evil invaders.

I think it is this exclusive attitude that “we have already arrived at truth and are the sole arbiters and defenders of what counts as truth” that comes across as arrogance, not the fact that they believe what they are promoting is true.


(Laura) #34

That’s true. But that’s what AIG does, quite explicitly – I have seen many of their cartoons featuring a “foundation” with the word “Genesis” on it, not Jesus.


(Jonathan) #35

In the AIG castle illustration, at least BioLogos would fit into the Christian castle :wink: (although you probably know where, doubtless being familiar with the illustration). :wink:
@Christy


#36

It appears to me that they hang their beliefs on it, it almost seems like their foundation to me, and if you take away any ones foundation or make it move when it is supposed to be firm in the ground, they panic and get defensive.

Those who believed the earth was flat (due to misinterpretations of the scriptures), when that was proven to not be true, if that being true was your foundation, it’s like attacking their God or reason for belief in their God. They can and did, kill people for that.

The Bible isn’t my foundation, it is a good “sensory” for perceiving and learning about God, but my foundation is in God, who is unshakable and unchangable and is good, just, loving, and worthy of all glory. And what builds on that foundation is that He wanted to know pathetic me, and knows me, and sent His Son to die for me, to be with me again! With that security, I have no need for praises or acceptance of man, I have no need to be most correct, or most knowledgeable. Thanks and glory to God, you will have a difficult time getting me worked up or finding something I am aggressively defensive about. Though I am human and do make errors and mistakes, I try to admit then and not hide further behind pride and dig a deeper whole and get more defensive.

But if someone builds their foundation on a book or words, and those words are scientifically challenged with proof in their faces. You better believe that is like inking you had a granite foundation, and if science is right, your foundation is paper, you better believe you will fearfully defend to get your granite back even if you need to lie to yourself to do it.

And for some it is not foundational or security based directly, but rather just a point of pride, which I guess desiring the approval of others or desiring to look good in front of your peers shows lack or security.

As far as humility, I think it was wise words that said, place yourself at the back most of the table and if you stay there you are rightly humble aware of your place, you stay there. But you might find the audience or host insist you sit closer to the front and then you are humble and exulted. But if you place yourself at the front, and the audience/host calls you out to move back, then you are prideful and humiliated.

That and the only thing we should boast in is God. Even if you are the wisest and most knowledgable ( as Jesus was), everything we have is a blessing of God, and I don’t deserve nor did I earn my current level of intellect or wisdom, I am no better than others.

From a logical standpoint, it is good to be humble, but it was also advised by many verses including Jesus.

I kind of expanded on thise first two above and touched on that third one. Was there a more specific topic requested that I missed?

That, is a cool saying.

And a much better way of explaining how I felt.

That is scary/troublesome to hear that.

It might sound a little silly and borderderline semantics being the trinity is a very difficult thing for us to grasp.

But I would put God on the foundation, not Jesus. Jesus was our perfect example, and His foundation was in God. Of course Jesus is integral to our faith and having access to God, but I personally like to make that distinction.

But personally I build my foundation in on The good, loving, just God. And when I read the Bible, I see this God throughout so many passages. Then I look for what is man, a creation of God. Why? Because God wants to know us. But He can’t, due to sin. I see this loving God in the birth of Jesus, who becomes a bridge back to God through atonement of sin ( if wanted). Now what? The two greatest commandments, to live God and man. That is my Biblical basement. Any other passage is “tested” against that Biblical basement, now I can build a first floor. And a second. And sometimes I get to a 9th floor, and learn some things, an I need to demolish 4 floors and start that 5th floor again. But you can’t shake my foundation, it is freeing.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #37

Be careful on this,lest you be repeating modern myths about what people allegedly did or did not accept over the last couple thousand years. This wikipedia article gives some good scholarly views on it.

I think you would be on sounder footing had you spoken of people’s beliefs over a moving/stationary earth. But even then, nobody that we know of was killed over that issue either. Bruno might be the closest thing to a counter-example, but even that falls apart on actual inspection. Not saying that I couldn’t be forgetting something here, just that I’m interested if you have any references on something to show otherwise. I’m still learning too.


(Jonathan) #38

Christopher Columbus is just going to sail off the edge of the world and die anyhow, so why bother killing him? :wink:

But, @still_learning, on a more serious note…How do you know God?


#39

Good catch, that was just a sloppy attempt from me. I should have used earth-centric belief to get my point across. But thought of another great example. People were even willing to, and attempted to kill Jesus when He attempted to shake their foundation that was the legalistic laws of God. Their foundation wasn’t in God, rather clearly in either the law, or more likely the pride of their position (which requires them to at face value uphold the law to maintain their position/pretige). I believe they had great knowledge on the history of God in the OT, but knew very little about the person of God on a relational level. I do believe Paul’s foundation was in God, though he witnessed in approval or participated in the stoning of Christians, God/Jesus got his attention real quick, and transformed his life. But when the Pharisees were angered at Jesus’ perceived attempt to usurp their authority or disobey their laws or were embarrassed and pride was on the line, they tried to have him killed. Yet Nicodemus, who probably had his foundation in God too, wasn’t as insecure or defensive (but inquisitive of the truth of God), he saw who Jesus could have been/was, and then came to be transformed by Jesus too.

The shortest answer I could give on that, is that He has revealed himself to me. Not physically or in special visions or anything tangible or that science can measure. But with an unexplainable certainty and peace.

The long answer…

I believe that those who earnestly seek Him, will find Him. Matt 7:7, Luke 11:9, and Heb 11:6, and Rev 3:20.

This isn’t to say that I believe that you must seek the God of the Bible (whom I believe is the one and only true God). But to first see the beauty and majesty of our world and universe in both the big and the small, or even better if you see God through a person He used to reflect God through them. But to want to know more about why we are here and what is the purpose for life. Not seeking to prove the Qur’an to be right, not seeking to prove science right, or even to seek to prove the Bible to be right, but earnestly seeking the the truth, from the Being that created everything and us.

That is when I believe God will begin to reveal Himself more and more to you and He allows us and encourages us to use our logic and He blessed us with logic. When you see the God of the Bible happens to be the God of creation is the only one out there that created us to be with Him. The only one that cares about your heart. He doesn’t care about what you do outwardly or what you bring to the table (love you unconditionally), what is displayed outwardly is fruit of what came from inside. He knows us and loves us, the ultimate acceptance. If God just loved us, without knowing us, it is sentimental and hookey. If He knew us and didn’t love us, that would be rejection. But He knows AND loves us in spite of who we are.

That is why these Pharisees were simply following the outward rules and laws, they thought that was what mattered, or again, were just lying about that even, and enjoyed the prestige and praises of men that were achieved from outwardly obeying these laws. That is when Jesus came to explain the laws in the first place. The 10 commandments were always supposed to be a thermometer (any measuring device) of the heart. It says don’t murder, but if you are angered at your neighbor, your heart is cold, and this commandment shows how cold your heart is. And to many Jews and Paul and Nicodemus, who seeked God (but were still flawed and sinful humans as we all are), had these truths revealed to them, and came to know Jesus who was from God, and only those who knew the Father could know/recognize or receive revelation of who the Son is/was. John 8:19.

So in seeking God and having the Bible revealed to me and using logic to see that this is the only book/religion that has such a logical and loving good God who cares about us and out hearts and not just our outward actions (which as far as I have known no other religion has). and then having had revealed to me the Son is the only way back to this loving God. That this Son is one who belonged to all the splendors of heaven, the King of Kings came down to save us. But not just to come as a mighty powerful king, but to come as a servant to us filth of man, and to demonstrate and reveal the truths of God to us and then to atone for all of our sin, so we can be with Him again!

I can’t even begin to attempt to explain the freeing redemptive power of God. And now having been justified through my faith in what Jesus did for me, I can now shine the light of this God who loves us so that all the world will see it in hopes that they come to know Him too!

I was once like the AIG, and believed in what the Bible said and what the church I grew up in said, and had my foundation in those words/thoughts. I felt like I was just a coincidence that I was brought up into the ‘correct’ religion, I didn’t really own it or understand it, much like I believe many children are indoctrinated into whatever religion their parents or community holds. It wasn’t until i was out on my own in this world, that I began to see God my creator, not the God of the Bible. So I greatly understand when your foundation is in some words, how defensive you get when those words are challenged or ‘proven’ wrong by the scientific community. 10 years ago, I would have told you this movie is going to convert so many people and would have been excited for it and I thought my goal is to save the world and force or convince everyone to believe in my God of the Bible. I would have said the scientist are all wrong and evil and have an agenda and skew data thanks to Satan and try to deceive people and scientist are evil. I never believe science was evil, but I thought scientist were, or any scientist that proclaimed evolution and I literally thought they skewed data to fit their bias. I know exactly what AIG feels.

Thanks and glory to God the Father that I no longer think that or have such a shallow easily shakable foundation anymore. But now you have seen as explained slightly in this post, but more above of what my foundation in life, and my Biblical basement is made of. Though the levels after that are more like branches. Like if you you try to tell me that dancing in church is bad or something. that is like the 20th floor of the west branch. That has so little effect on my overall beliefs and purpose in life. But a recent (as of a few weeks ago thanks to this site, and God who can use all things to bring about his glory, even if that is to increase in my knowledge about Him) I have recently come to believe in EC and evolution and how it is most likely that the Genesis account is not a literal historical account. A why we are here rather than a how we got here.

I have to search for a quote, but I remember hearing a story about how Darwin (moved by Paley’s Natural Theology) discovered his theory and excitedly showed it to a fellow theist, and was overjoyed and said something to the effect of (God gave us the why, and you have discovered the how). What turned him atheist I have heard was the death of his loved one, and the concept of suffering that turned him, not the discovery of evolution.

Which I too have had the death of a mother, (though I think it was his quite young daughter). I would hate to assume I knew him or what he went through. But if His foundation was in God and the goodness of God, I don’t think that would have turned him. We know that God is good, that is a given (for Christians), so God either had no role in the death of his daughter, or was able to use this death in His divine plan. Sure I mourn when a loved one is lost, and enjoyed the time I had with them and will miss not being able to have that time with them again here on earth. But I am also thankful for the time I had with them and blessed to have had that long with them. Why do I feel so entitled to have had any amount of time with them or as much time as I did have? Why do I deserve good health or intellect? I don’t, but I am thankful it was given to me and wish to use it to glorify God with my gifts. A great example of suffering was a man who lost his land, his animals, his children and his health. His response “The Lord gives and He takes away”. Later on was worn down and required revelation and assistance and restoration from God as He was beginning to question, as we all grow weary. David grew weary and prayed constantly for God’s help, and also praised God constantly for His gifts and provisions and security. If your foundation is is your family or health or anything other than God, it can be shaken and taken away, leaving you frightened and scared. Some turn to God when hitting rock bottom. Others have hearts that grow hard and bitter and claim they are the only thing that can bring themselves out and turn atheist. Theism and atheism when it boils down to differ in one key thing, a point of pride. Am I in control of me, do I want to have control of me? Or do I know that God who designed me knows what is best for me and I want him to have control.

I think becoming an atheist because of suffering, or being an atheist due to suffering, is circular logic like being a Christian because the Bible says we should be. If you do not believe the Bible or there is a God, then you do not believe he is good, then suffering can’t be blamed on Him. If you are a Christian and believe the precepts of the Bible in that God is good, you can’t refute His goodness in your perception of bad, because by Biblical definition, He is good. His goodness isn’t circumstantial, it is a truth. Much like a child who gets punished (and is simple minded) sees the parents as mean in causing them to suffer punishment. But the wise parent, is not making the child suffer, rather using punishment as a deterrent and reminder to not do that potentially harmful thing again. Not to say that God is always using punishments and disciplines to help us learn, but to say that, one has higher meaning, and our feeble minds can’t always see the big picture.

I could expand more if requested but want to respect peoples time as much as I can despite how much I tend to ramble. I’m sorry. But that in a nutshell is “how I know God”.


Debate reminder: Friday at 7:30 pm
Interpreting Luke's Genealogical Account
#40

Just like ID!


(George Brooks) #41

@still_learning

You write:
"To me it reeks of a liberal “argument” in today’s society that can’t be won. Though facts are used to support, the main argument is moral high ground[:]

[1] If a conservative thinks universal healthcare is detrimental and unsustainable in the long run, they are met with…Conservatives like to kill babies.

[2] If conservatives think immigration needs to be reformed…conservatives are racist.

[3] If you think the earth could be old and evolution possible…you believe a lie and invalidate the Bible.

And then you conclude with:
“What happened to people putting out facts on both sides and debating and or letting each person decide?”

Well, sure. But I’m a little confused by your three [3] points above. In points [1] and [2], Conservatives are being attacked based on moral accusations… and then in point [3], you describe the criticism received if someone defends Evolution?

So that’s kind of a strange mix, right? The first 2 points are liberals attacking conservatives … and the 3rd point it’s the YECs [Conservatives, right?] attacking anyone liberal enough to defend Evolution.

So… in fact, your premise on “liberal arguments” was sort of a feint … because you conclude with criticism against the Liberal position of Evolution and Old Earth.

Maybe you need a tie-breaker? Do you agree that CO2 concentration in Earth’s atmosphere is correlated to climate change? I would think you would, but you were criticizing Liberal positions … so now I don’t know which way to guess.

[Send me a text on the Private Message system!]
As for your polemic on Healthcare, maybe you could drop me a note why all the 2nd Tier democracies in the world can afford universal healthcare, but one of the richest countries, like America, cannot? I find that so very odd…


#42

Sorry it was not my intent to get into a political debate, and I shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations about all liberals and didn’t intent to.

I was just two examples I could think of off the top of my head. I then used those two examples to equate that tactic (and that tactic only) that to the AIG who seemed to be using moral high ground to defend YEC.

There was no intent nor am I claiming to chose political sides here, not am I intended to pin YEC to the liberals or conservatives. At the time I couldn’t think of any conservative arguments that they use this tactic, I am sure there are some.

Feel free to pm me if you have any questions as to my political views, but I don’t want to go there in this forum, it was merely an analogy to use an example I assume many are familiar with, and show this is what i see AIG as doing.

I didn’t want it to take forever to write, I used the first thing that came to my mind. If it makes you feel better, provide me with a good conservative analogy and I can put them up there too.

And to clarify, I am not saying a specific stance is wrong or bad, rather the argument used, the argument of ‘moral high ground’.


(Jonathan) #43

@still_learning
Placing the “knowing God” conversation on the shelf for the time being…

Do you believe there is such a thing as ‘moral high ground’?


#44

That is a tough question, and I would say it depends on the topic first.

I have even argued there is no such thing as ‘moral’ outside of the Bible, rather equate morals to a perceived benefit as a moral. the only ‘good’ that is done outside of God, is all about the perceived benefit.

What about WW2. Is it moral to kill 200,000 people (women and children) if it was to save millions? (atomic bomb)
That is where perceived benefit plays a role. Our morals can, and are bent and changed by the society and culture we live in. Is it possible Hitler was moral? He clearly wasn’t right in his mind in thinking non-arian’s were inferior and less than human. But, if they were inferior and ruining the human race, would it not be a good and moral thing to kill them all? People claim they want world peace (I do not) because the ideal of world peace may be nice, attaining it would be horrendous, and maintaining it would be sick too. So should we just kill all the weird crazy violent people to attain world peace? Would that be moral?

We think child sacrifice isn’t moral, but is sure was fine to some cultures to get good crops or weather or some other kind of benefit perceived.

Trusting in the Father and His good will, that is moral and righteous. We don’t need to have pride and take matters into our own hands with such fervent zeal.

That being said, we should stand up for those who don’t have a voice, and we are Biblically called to. BUT not to the extent of hating others and ruining our main purpose to love our neighbors. God can use us as tools, but we need to remember He is in control and have faith and love as we pursue to protect those who can’t themselves.

But back to the question…

No, I don’t think there is such a thing as moral high ground, as morals are relative, so is the ‘height’ of that ground. That it is gets no one anywhere.
But I would argue that the majority of people do actually want the ‘good’ and ‘moral’ thing. The perceived benefit is a good thing. The problem there is we all perceive something different in our own minds.

This is why debates on many many topics need to have logic involved and tangible points to consider on both sides. Maybe even a trial period (a hypothesis and experiment and measure it) to see how well something works or doesn’t work. To analogize, almost like having the states try something and not have the federal gov interfere.

Like I have said in other threads. If you are born with blue glasses on and someone says the sky is blue. You think, no its not, its normal. It isn’t until you take those glasses off that you see it as blue. We need to be willing to see the other side, put on their glasses and want it to be right, try to prove it, play devils advocate. Then if you still disagree with ideals, that is fine (on some topics, politics and relationships need to be able to learn to compromise, not so much with ideals), but try to put on other glasses, and maybe you can then see what they see. I still don’t think you are right the sky is normal(it is blue), but, I see how you see it as normal. Both sides can learn a lot from that exercise.

I enjoy watching an educated atheist and Christian debate, I learn what makes atheist tick and learn much from the Christians too when logic and thought out points are used. I learn nothing from “You are stupid and weak to believe in a God, science proves you wrong.” Or" God says He is the only God in the Bible, so it must be true." That isn’t the moral high ground technique, but no logic or circular logic is just as frustrating to hear and no one learns anything from either, just like with ‘moral high ground’.


#45

Just for the record, the liberal argument is that universal health care is working in other 1st world western democracies, and it is working well. In fact, the US pays twice what other countries pay who have universal health care. Every other 1st world nation has shown that it works. The only people who the US health care system is benefiting are those who profit off of health care.


#46

That’s fine, I am aware that there is a logical argument on both sides. I wasn’t giving the ‘official liberal argument’ nor was I intending to say that one is better than the other. Rather pointing out that I do not like the ‘moral high ground’ technique to win a debate.

I wouldn’t mind talking with you via pm’s if you wanted about this. I would like to see the logical argument for universal healthcare. Just not in this thread, and I am not so sure if it is allowed to have such a thread as the rules or intent of this site. If you are disinterested that is fine too, but I wouldn’t mind learning another perspective.


(Mike) #47

Productions like this are just preaching to the choir of those who already hold a YEC position - in the end it’s just another feel good movie for themselves. It would be interesting to survey the theater and find out if anyone doesn’t already sit in the YEC camp.

I seriously doubt that anyone who might be thinking about God’s existence let alone Christianity would come away from this with any positive feelings about either.


Misrepresentation of Grand Canyon rock formations
Misrepresentation of Grand Canyon rock formations
(Curtis Henderson) #48

I can’t imagine any more than maybe 10% that were not already firmly YEC.