Interpreting Luke's Genealogical Account

[still_learning]

@freddymagnanimo

Thanks Still Learning. I’m definitely with you on feeling awe and wonder at the universe, but this doesn’t get me to Christianity. How do you feel about the fact that most people express these feelings through the faith that they were brought up in, which is not necessarily Christianity? Do you think people of other religions are not seeking honestly, or do you think maybe people can find God in religions other than Christianity?

You can read this post here Genesis Movie Trailer. An Exciting-Looking Film Forthcoming From Our Friends At AIG! - #39 by still_learning to see where my “conversion/revelation” came from.

I kind of spell out my thoughts on other religions. I don’t know any ones heart, so I can’t really say why they believe what they do.

Are they really seeking to find our creator? Or are they seeking to ‘confirm’ the ‘truth’ of what they want to believe in?

I hate to use logic, but to me Christianity is the most logical one. I think in my seeking God, He is the one that revealed that logic to me.

@still_learning

The Biblical God is One who loves me, is amazingly powerful and brilliant, who is always good, and craziest of all, wants to know me and my heart, not just the actions I commit(again back to the why and much deeper and intimate than just the what I do), and cares about who I am (and still loves me in spite of who I am) and says there is no fathomable way that we could even attempt to make an idol or an image of Him.

And I believe all other religions are just like atheism, in they lack purpose of life, a higher calling or meaning for being here, it’s too shallow for me. This god wants me to obey these rules, this god wants me to obey those rules, this god wants me to actually take care of it and adorn it’s representation of it in gold and even says I have the capability of capturing its ‘essence’ in an idol that I can make with my hands. These guys say there is no god and so why even live, what is the point? These guys say they are not sure of a higher power, seems too impersonal to me. These guys say all paths lead to god, which again is too impersonal for me. These guys say there is a god that brings me heat and love and water ect, which again are too impersonal, nor did they create me. Some say we live a bunch of ‘test’ lives and get promoted or demoted conditionally based off of our accomplishments and keep completing these ‘test’ lives until we reach the end and become nothing? Then some say we are all god and one in the universe, I still see no deeper purpose in life. Some its the pursuit of truth, but still why? They just don’t appeal to my logic, they seem so shallow and meaningless.

But I do not thing all paths lead to God. Is there any other Creator that wants to be with His creations in other religions. I am not expert on all religions, but I think I summarized most of them in that quote above.

Why do people think they are worthy of being in any way associated with their Creator? He created you, do you really think you can earn your way back to him? It’s like an ant trying to climb its way to the moon, it’s not gong to happen. Unless He lovingly provides a way for us to know Him and come to Him, which as far as I know, that only religions is Christianity, where Jesus does this.

It is a difficult subject to speak to for many people. And people you have a deep talk like that to, should be really good friends. I just don’t happen to have anyone of another religion that I am that close to, to ask them why they believe what they believe. I can’t back it up, but it is just a very strong belief I have, that anyone who earnestly seeks their Creator, He will reveal Himself to them. It could be supernatural, or it could be through the acts of man (why does this Christian act this way), as men are a vessel of God’s light, mirrors to shine Him to us. Or it could be through words of man. I don’t believe any words of man will every convince anyone to believe in God. But I do believe a man who is seeking God, can see God’s revelation in those words/logic and come to know God through those words then.

I do not hold all the truths. Maybe some are hidden for the time being, maybe some I will never know. But
I enjoy talking and relating with others who share similar passions, but in the large scheme of things, it doesn’t make a hill of beans. My foundation is based in my Creator, who wants to know me, and allows me to be with Him, through the sacrifice of His Son. And though I can’t and don’t follow His will all the time, I know in my head and my heart it is what is best for me, I can’t explain why I still sin. Because I am human, and when I don’t stay close to the Spirit, who can do the will of God, I fall back to my nature and sin.

@aleo

But even though the evidence supports the fact that we modern humans have the same genome as early H.s., our markedly different behaviors strongly support the occurrence of some Epi-genetic change, the exact mechanism of which is currently unknown. (Presently I would place my bet on it’s involving DNA-methylation in the cerebral cortex, but the results are AS IF the brain became programmed to act as Mind.)

I am leaning more and more that direction the more I learn.

@aleo

Perhaps one of the other authors of John’s gospel wanted future generations to remember this: John 6:44 _No one comes to me unless the Father draws him.

I completely agree with this. This is why I think Pharisees didn’t recognize Jesus, and this is why (though it took a bit of time and earnest seeking) Paul and Nicodemus found Jesus. John 8:19 Paul knew God, and found Jesus. The Pharisees had no clue who God was (on a personal level) they just knew about God. This is why God says, depart from me, I never knew you. They never knew His heart, they just knew His laws. They were all about outward appearances, like so many other religions. God wants to know our hearts, and we wants us to know His heart. A personal relationship with Him.

@aleo

In the second Jesus seems to be speaking as Christ, the cosmic Messiah, through whom even heathens who never learned of Jesus could be drawn to the Father; i.e. be saved and not damned.

Which do you believe is closer to the Truth? I am putting my faith and trust in the latter.
Al Leo

I am kind of thinking the later one also. I am currently reading to scriptures to see if I can find support (or a part that clearly refutes this) line of thought. I know that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness Rom 4:9.

I have said this in other posts, but I’m sure you didn’t read it as many are long. But when I look at the Bible as a whole (which I like to do so I don’t get caught up on details). I see why God made us, which is to be with Him. We can’t be with Him because we are sinners. The first sin was rejection of God’s ways. We think we can do better, we think we can control things and are smarter than God, and we can decide the best course of action. God allows us to pursue this (though He knows it is wrong and bad for us), this is what sin is, God allows us to sin Sin in the most fundamental of terms is not doing what God says is best, rejecting He knows best, and we can do better.

So when Abraham has faith in God’s ways, this was credited to him as righteousness. This is what God wants, and always wanted, for us to know Him, and trust Him, because He loves us. Just like a parent wants their kinds to know and trust them.

When Jesus came, we fulfilled the law, didn’t sin, died for us to atone for our sins and conquer the law. So before Jesus, we could want to listen to God (but our human nature pushes us in the direction not doing God’s will), this was sin. We killed animals to sacrifice our sine, which was commanded, but it also required faith in God to do these things.

Hosea 6:6 “I don’t want your sacrifices—I want your love; I don’t want your offerings—I want you to know me.

Since we (Israelites only) had a law, we would have faith in God to atone our sins through the spotless lamb, which again, was a commandment, but also demonstrated faith, and also set up Jesus (foreshadowing). We kept needing to sacrifice lambs, because we kept sinning. But the ones who loved God and His ways in his heart was I believe vindicated. God knows our hearts, we can fool anyone else, but Him. This was the purpose of the law, to show we can’t live a sinless life. We can’t earn our way to God, we need something better.

So when Jesus came, and died for us, conquered the law, now we no longer fall under the law, but under His grace through Jesus. We still sin, but in that declaration of wanting Jesus to forgive us, and wanting to do the will of God, that is the same faith I believe credited to Abraham as righteousness.

Jesus was on earth, He forgave sins, God can forgive sins. The lambs were not magical, it was an agreement. If you sacrifice this lamb, I will forgive you. God still did the forgiving. But God cannot (or wishes not to) just willy nilly forgive the world for a few reasons. One, that makes everything in creation pointless, why not just do that in the beginning. Two, sin is bad, God doesn’t want us to sin, He is holy, we (as sinners) can’t be in God’s presence. It has to be only allowed to forgive those who want it, or it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. Three, this is what I believe heaven and hell is. Heaven is choosing God’s will, hell is rejecting it. It does no good to forgive a man of his sin if he still rejects God. Because of sin, he can’t be with God, but even if sinless, he still doesn’t want to be with God. God allows those that want to be with Him, a way to do so, and those who don’t, not to.

I use caution saying this, because I do believe that Jesus was/is real, and did come in human form to die for us, and show us how to live a life following God’s will (aka sinless). But I almost want to say that Jesus is a manifestation of faith in God. So if Abraham had faith in God (before Jesus on earth), he basically had faith that God would send Jesus to die for us. Faith in a loving God, came to fruition when a loving God send His Son to die for us to be with Him.

Faith in God’s will (knowing that He knows what is best for us) was the same before, during, or after Jesus. BUT, being that God loved us so much and did send His Son Jesus, I think it can be quite blasphemous to deny who He was or what He did for us. So I think in having faith in God post Jesus, God will reveal the truth of Jesus to you.

@aleo

I hope you will take the time to peruse some of my previous posts that suggest that the concept of Original Sin arose from the (defensible) ignorance of the fact that God used evolution and ‘selfish genes’ to produce the variety of wondrous life we see on earth. When a promising primate, Homo sapiens, appeared, he bestowed a Blessing, changing brain into Mind and Conscience, potentially enabling H.s. to rise above animal instinct.

I really like this logic, and I think it supplements greatly my current beliefs. Like animals had natural instinct only. Humans, had natural instinct, and then were given an “original blessing”, with the ability to use logic to sometimes not follow that natural instinct. But sometimes is not enough. And God wanting us to know Him (how holy He is) gave us consciences and the law so we could see how we are pulled and succumb to that pressure of following our natural instinct. Then Jesus came, and showed us how to not follow the instinct for His entire life…

I am not convinced that a man (other than Jesus) could not, not sin. Jesus was temped and able to sin, He was 100% human (animal instinct and all). So if we are human too, could we not sin? I think with the help of the Holy Spirit, and constant prayer to the Father, and doing everything Jesus taught us to do, is what helped Jesus not sin. He wants us to also allow the Spirit to help us not sin, this is a sanctification process of our lives, hopefully become more and more like Jesus. I don’t think any other man could have conquered death (that was one of the “100% God” part of Jesus) as Jesus did, which freed us from the law. But technically speaking, I could believe that a man could live a sinless life, there is no original sin, and get to heaven having lived a sinless life.