You stated it and demonstrated it: you set out to look for what would support your view of the matter.
If I am completely honest, I must call you out on your lies here: first, there is no such thing as a “secular dating methodology”, there is measurements in the laboratory that are the same for all; second, it has nothing to do with calibrating anything, it has to do with laboratory measurements that are the same for all.
Once again you demonstrate why people reject YEC – the lies.
Exactly what YEC refuses to do: YEC starts with rationalistic assumptions and forces the scriptures to fit them.
The internal contradiction in that statement would be hilarious if it weren’t tragic: dating in archaeology relies heavily on measurements in the lab that get repeated over and over again.
Where does the scripture say that it is “eyewitness historical accounts”?
The fact is that it makes no such claim – that is an assumption that comes from a MSWV and is forced onto the text.
Then why did you say that it does?
Try telling that to the former atheists and agnostics of my university’s informal intelligent design club who came to believe in a Designer and then became Christians due to their study of evolution.
I keep listening to YECers and YECists and have never encountered any such assumption. The only assumptions that ToE requires are that the laws of nature do not change (i.e. that God is faithful) and that human intelligence can grasp at least the basics of those laws (i.e. that we can look at nature and see God’s glory).
And I think that is a lie straight from the pit leading millions away from the truth. It is a demonstrable fact that evolution has not led people away from Christianity and it is a demonstrable fact that this nonsense in opposition to the findings of science HAS pushed people away from Christianity.
Young people indoctrinated by the creationist-atheist alliance in this distortion of Christianity filled with lies tend to find out the truth and come to the conclusion that Christianity itself must be a lie. They cannot see any point to a Christianity which teaches such lies, hence churches are dying year by year as this creationist-atheist alliance paint Christianity as a delusion no different from the Flat Earth society. This encourages them to see all the truths of the past as filled with lies and so they turn to other ways of thinking which discard family, marriage, and gender.
I am a scientist, not raised Christian but in opposition to it, who personally found truth in Christianity, but what you are pushing is neither truth nor Christianity and I will never see any value in that. Furthermore I think it is an invention of people seeking to turn Christianity into a tool of power over other people – IOW outright blasphemy.
The plain fact of the matter is that I could never believe in Christianity without evolution. It is only because of evolution that I can find Christianity believable. Otherwise the God of Christianity is a monster devil, whom I will oppose at any cost to myself. The harshness of evolution matches the harshness of the Bible perfectly. It shows that this harshness is a requirement of life itself.
The God you describe does not sound loving, just, holy, righteous, or competent to me at all. And it is evident to me that you have changed God’s word into lies and God into a liar. And without evolution, the God described in the Bible is the opposite of holy, just, loving or righteous – nothing but a genocidal child murdering monster who likes torturing the innocent. But of course you just want the right to dictate to everyone that anyone who disagrees with you is not innocent but someone who deserves to be tortured by the God you have refashioned into your personal slave to do whatever evil you demand.
To be sure the removal of this deception by creationism would not solve all of our problems. These competing ways of thinking as well as other religions would remain to draw people away from Christianity. But the distortion is making it difficult for people to see the value of Christianity and thus making it so much easier for these other ideas to be more appealing to people.
Thank you for your thoughts. I will say that it is a common straw man to say that scientists believe that a micro-organism emerged fully formed spontaneously. Having worked with astrobiologists, who typically are the ones studying the origin of life, I have not heard a single one of my colleagues say such a thing. For that reason, it is kind of hard for me to take the probability argument seriously, just because it is such a misrepresentation of actual ideas regarding chemical pathways to the origin of life.
I’ve posted this several times, but I’m putting it here to show why those atheists and agnostics I mentioned above felt about evolutionand how they came to Christ.
A Psalm of the Designer
Evolution declares the glory of God,
and the chromosomes in cells proclaim His handiwork!
Day to day pours out research,
and night to night reveals studies.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them,
yet their message has gone out to the whole earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.
He has set a tent for DNA,
which sends its messengers out from its chamber
like strong men they run their course with joy.
Its reach is from the birth of the Earth,
its circuit all around it,
and there is no life apart from that reach. selah
O Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory within the cell.
When I look at all life, the work of your fingers,
the nucleus and the mitochondria§, which you have set in place –
What is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?
You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
all flocks and herds, and the animals of the wild,
the birds in the sky, and the fish in the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.
Oh Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
§ or, “the plants and all animals”
Carbon dating of material in Hezekiah’s tunnel accurately agrees with the Biblical time, so if carbon dating is wrong, the Bible is wrong.
Eyewitness written historical accounts date the Egyptian pyramids prior to the flood as calculated by AiG using genealogies. Carbon dating favors the earlier historic range.
You say that because archeology directly threatens your position. Archaeology includes operational science; would you suggest rather making stuff up as YEC is wont to do?
What do you care of the established laws of both physics and chemistry? They are severely violated in manifold ways by the YEC appeal to accelerated nuclear decay.
There is more than science involved here. Prominent scandals have not helped. But instead of misrepresenting science and talking about topics such as ATP, perhaps you should just declare science and technology to be anathema. Declare that pilgrims should read no science, hear no science, and speak no science. Because the findings of science are not going to alter to accommodate your particular views.
Hi T_aquaticus,
of course I am NOT arguing against science!
Science is a noble endeavour that I myself have worked in a broad variety of disciplines ranging from performing CSIRO developed atomic absorption spectroscopy in the mid 1970’s to developing desktop analysis projects for remote sensing data to hands on fieldwork mapping specific extant species in vulnerable ecosystems here in Australia.
Suffice to say, I’m well acquainted with the scientific method and what science can do and what science can’t do. Problems typically arise when accurate data is interpreted through the lens of a worldview that is not accurate or even logical, let alone in alignment with the Holy Bible
Furthermore, when it becomes very evident that the abovementioned worldview refutes and goes against what is so clearly spelled out by God to us all in the Holy Bible, it is as clear as day to me that the worldview (i.e., evolution), is in error.
It is not the data that is in error, it’s the interpretation forced upon the data to fit the secular ‘deep time’ evolution worldview that I have a problem with.
But here T_aquaticus, as it seems is a common practice on this site, you misrepresent me in a simplistic manner.
Of course God is NOT “required to use similar designs in all life.”
I did NOT say that God is required to do anything, that is simply a gross misrepresentation yet again.
Clearly God used a great many different designs in some areas because of His great capacity for creativity, but if you would care to read my post again, I stated, “within the parameters and constrains of the environmental ecosystems that He designed” and what I mean by that, is life was designed by God to inhabit niches within ecosystems and to adapt as environmental factors change over time, but there is similarity between all life forms that is well demonstrated at the cellular level for example, where ALL life uses DNA to store and pass on the complex coded information necessary for each form of life to continue living, to multiply and prosper here on this amazing planet we call Earth
Again more uncalled for and mischievous misrepresentation.
Please tell me, how in the world you know what I may or may not come up with?
.
The language of life is as complex as it is ubiquitous!
If you want to bring unfalsifiability into this, the biggest ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM here is evolution. If ever any theory was unfalsifiable it is evolution theory!
No matter what is discovered, what is found that contradicts evolution, the goal posts are moved, and the theory is massaged to accommodate the new inconvenient discovery and so it goes on with its faithful followers it seems none the wiser.
Because of this fairly unique facet of evolution, it is essentially impossible to prove evolution is false within the parameters of the evolution worldview.
It is however readily falsified when we look at the purported ‘engine room’ of evolution that is of course natural selection. Clearly natural selection is real and is constantly at play across life on Earth.
But natural selection ALWAYS operates WITHIN a kind, you will never ever see any examples of natural selection changing across Biblical created kinds.
Yes, the Linean classification system or more accurately the binomial nomenclature invented by the devout Christian, Swedish Naturalist Carolus Linnaeus does have many examples where taxonomists have separated and designated ‘new’ species, but this is typically a matter of making an arbitrary distinction, thus very broadly speaking, a mammal remains a mammal, a plant remains a plant, a reptile remains a reptile etc., and a little less broadly, a cat remains a cat within the cat kind, a horse remains within the horse kind, a dog remains a dog within the dog kind, a grass remains a grass within the grass kind etc., I hope you get the picture here.
So YES, there is natural selection, BUT that is NOT evolution.
As its very apt name suggests, ‘Natural Selection’ is selective; i.e., it can ONLY ever select from already existing information, IT IS NOT A CREATIVE FORCE!
Thus, clearly in nearly every case, natural selection results in a net Loss of some complex specified information that previously existed.
That loss of complex specified information may confer a temporary benefit such that it may be favoured in the reproductive stakes when lucky enough to successfully reproduce, but and it is a very big but, (please pay attention here), THERE IS NO INCREASE in the complex specified information in the genome of that life form, there is only a LOSS of complex specified information.
And that is why in my humble opinion, evolution is utterly falsified!
After all, evolution requires by its very definition, the origin of species from the alleged first life to us human beings, that logically represents an ever increasing quantity and quality of complex specified information written upon the deoxyribonucleic acid, in nucleotide letters upon the hydrogen bridges between the sugar ribose strands, there is no escaping here that increase in complex specified information is absolutely and undeniably REQUIRED.
THIS SIMPLY DOES NOT HAPPEN!
Therefore evolution is false, it is a falsified theory.
In almost no other field of science would such a situation exist, but there we have it: EVOLUTION IS THE DESPERATELY DECEITFUL LIE THAT IS LEADING MANY AWAY FROM THE LIFE GIVING TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.
Why don’t you understand? It is examples similar to this that are used as evidence in support of chemical evolution. Basically, simplistic nonsense that deceives and convinces some people that evolution is real unfortunately. Probably because they aren’t aware of the true facts.
I have not accused anyone!
If you were acting honestly and actually put my statements into their proper context rather than quoting my words without including what I was responding to, the deceptive nature of your attack is exposed.
Therefore, in order for the Truth to be made clear here, in proper context, I was replying to your egregiously false statements that amount to nothing more than schoolyard level lies to discredit those that don’t agree with you.
The post hat I was responding to is below:
Thus, I stand by my words that are again below:
What I was responding to were the statements you made shown below:
[quote=“T_aquaticus, post:18, topic:56582”]
I am looking at both sides of the argument and seeing what impact they would have. If life arose through natural processes then we would have the theory of evolution we see today. If life arose through God creating life then we would have the theory of evolution we see today. No matter how that first life arose, the theory of evolution would be unaffected.
And so once again, I will attempt to convey this simple reality.
Firstly , before I state anything else it is palpably clear that evolution is not true it is FALSE.
If it were true then there is nothing wrong with your statements, but the unavoidable reality as well as the Truth as revealed in the Holy Bible, BOTH confirm that evolution theory is an egregious deception, a lie if you will. And as I have already stated: “More importantly, the scenario that you deem to omit is the TRUE one, the creation account inspired by God Himself, as explained directly from the Holy Scriptures.”
The creation was supernaturally created by God out of nothing at His command as He spoke the Words of creation, it immediately was so; this explanation is consistent with what we observe with real operational science, is consistent with the laws of probability, the laws of information theory, and just plain common sense! Not to mention most importantly, it is consistent with the Holy Bible.
Furthermore, the description of the Global Flood of Noah in the Holy Bible, is consistent with what we find all over the planet, vast deposits of sedimentary rock that after careful examination were clearly laid down rapidly. The reality of the Global Flood in Noah’s day is what Jesus Himself believed and taught.
T-aquatics, please read what I said more carefully before going off with less than half the message. I’m not claiming that anyone is just assuming there was single celled life, after all, the theory of evolution theory can be massaged to accommodate any number of cells, but that is not my point here. I am simply attempting to ask a very basic question that goes to the heart of the folly of belief in evolution theory.
Think about it, if evolution were to be true, then when life first kicked off, it would of necessity in accordance with evolutionary theory that you claim to believe, have been some simple life form capable of reproduction; whether it is assumed to be a single cell or multiple cells is irrelevant. th assumed progression from that simple life form over alleged billions of years obviously would have necessitated an increase in information that for all the diversity we now observe where they are complete, within the individual genomes from specimens of all extant and extinct life on Earth does it not?
Thus, my question is simply, how do you think that happened; specifically by what mechanism do you believe this ascension of complexity of coded specified information arise?
Again, why do you not understand something that is ever so fundamental?
Of course within evolution theory, there is an assumption that life began and provided the biological hardware as it were, on which evolution is purported to have performed its magic.
But you fail to recognise the fossil record is a stark testimony to the Global Flood of Noah’s day, that is clearly described in the Holy Bible and affirmed by the Creator, incarnate as Jesus Himself. You need look no further than knowing that reality. Of course life existed, after all didn’t God create life as He tells us in His Word, and because of the Global Flood we find fossils all over the Globe, but that IN NO WAY ENDORSES evolution! It simply confirms the Global Flood really occurred! Just as the Holy Bible faithfully and truthfully tells us.
No, not interested, I have better things to do than to go and read papers in the literature that are in effect desperate attempts to try and explain the inexplicable. Besides from what I have read of the subject, it is well and truly debunked, but as always the faithful evolution adherents refuse to let it go and still spout RNA world nonsense as if it doesn’t have monumental intractable problems!
Well, if yu don’t take my word for it, believe Jesus and the Apostles. Believe the Holy Scriptures, for they tell us all abut the Global Flood that covered all the high mountains by fifteen cubits (about 20’) of water.
And next time you go on a trip around the world, have a very close look at all the enormous deposits of sedimentary rock full of both marine and terrestrial fossils jumbled up together.
Well of course you would have to believe that all the massive deposits of sedimentary rock originated on the sea floor, because you have no other plausible alternatives. But if what you believe is true, how do you account for the fossil graveyards that contain assemblies of terrestrial and marine animals and plants from diverse ecosystem types and ranges. And how do you account for the vast and incredibly deep sheets of uniform sedimentary strata found all over the planet without any sign of bioturbation or weathering whatsoever!
The coal seams are made up of vast forests of pine trees here in Australia, consisting of various pine tree species, with visible jumbled tree trunks that are coalified sandwiched in between vast sheets of sandstone, with what looks like forest litter at the top and bottom of each seam.
Suffice to say that even a five year can see that the coal seams here in Australia aren’t the result of slow and gradual deposition in a peat bog over millions of years.
I could go on, but it seems your evolution, ‘deep time’ worldview beliefs has far too strong a hold on you to open your eyes to what is ever so clear.
T_aquaticus, I was once of the same beliefs as you hold now, I was once deceived by the lie of evolution and it took some time for me to get a grip on reality, as the extent of the hold the lie had on how I saw the world was profoundly powerful, but praise be to the Lord Jesus, Who opened my eyes to the Truth.
Now I marvel that I could ever have been so blind as I truly was, because once I saw the Truth about the Creation/Evolution questions, I could never go back to not knowing and believing a lie that is in conflict with God’s Holy Bible, that is, the false theory of evolution.
Do they, what exceptions are you referring to?
If they do, I would presume that is simply because the measurements to which I presume you refer are interpreted within your evolutionary framework.
Obtaining quantitative data of accurate parent and daughter isotopes is one thing that is readily achievable and is easily repeated. BUT, the assigning of an age to those precise isotope measurements is an entirely different matter altogether and is strongly predicated upon your worldview.
I* imagine that dinosaurs like reptiles today could swim very well, and unless they were of the Crocodilian type, would more likely die on land than drown in the water. But the fact remains apart from a Global catastrophic flood, there are no plausibly evidenced explanations to account for the extraordinary number of mass fossil graveyards of dinosaurs found all around the world!
As I expect you are in the US, I would encourage you to read the article at:
A Global Flood would not only drown a dinosaur, it would drown everything else too, and that is precisely why we have such an enormous quantity of well preserved fossils around the world; it is rapid burial from high volumes of sediment in water that creates the perfect conditions for exquisite fossil preservation. The catastrophic Global Flood of Noah would most likely have created just those conditions.
But why don’t you understand that the much repeated error that you are stating here is not an escape from the Truth about how life as we know it came to be here:
Please let me explain.
The often repeated claim that you also have repeated here is smoke and mirrors as far as the question of the origin of the diversity of species upon Earth goes.
It is a cop out to say the least to embrace the lie of evolution and then conveniently avoid the inconvenient biological law that: LIFE ONLY EVER COMES FROM LIFE, by stating that evolution theory doesn’t require abiogenesis.
Yes, you are correct that strictly defined Darwinian and Neo Darwinian evolution do not require abiogenesis; yes, they very conveniently ensured that inconvenient reality was sidestepped a long time ago, but once again, that doesn’t eliminate this very big other Elephant in the room.
Chemical evolution has insurmountable problems to overcome, not the least of which is not only the sheer improbability, but in effect the IMPOSSIBILITY of life ever springing forth from inorganic compounds, and then reproducing.
As a reminder, this is from a previous exchange here.
No, it doesn’t. It results in net loss of information that turned out to be less useful than other information.
That is misleading. Insertions increase the amount of information, whole genome duplication increases the amount of information, novel allopolyploidy increases the amount of information. Each of those has been observed in living organisms.
And, given that this has been pointed out to be untrue repeatedly already, this is either willful ignorance or lying.
Umm…
That has been known to be false for 250 years.
From Michael Tuomey in 1848 again: “It was usual, at one time, to refer the phenomenon of the distribution of organic remains in these rocks to the deluge; but no one, who has ever examined a fossiliferous deposit for five minutes, can hold such an opinion. The manner in which fossil shells are embedded shows most conclusively that the animals to which they belonged lived and dies where we find them, and they could not have been disturbed by the waters of a deluge.”
They tell us is a highly structured and theologized fashion about a flood that covered all the hills on the flat earth under the solid firmament with fifteen cubits of water. Calling it a globe is adding to the text. Calling it mountains rather than hills is choosing a specific possible translation over another.
Like Michael Tuomey had?
“It was usual, at one time, to refer the phenomenon of the distribution of organic remains in these rocks to the deluge; but no one, who has ever examined a fossiliferous deposit for five minutes, can hold such an opinion. The manner in which fossil shells are embedded shows most conclusively that the animals to which they belonged lived and dies where we find them, and they could not have been disturbed by the waters of a deluge.”
Depending on their structure, there are a few options. Some of them are material that washed into and then out of a river and got dumped onto the sea floor. Others show sea level varying back and forth gradually over time. And yet others are tsunami deposits or landslides, or other similar events. There are far more deposits that are consistently marine than that have jumbles.
By pointing out that this is still a lie; most deposits do show bioturbation and/or weathering. A few do not.
How would they be in distinct seams if they were getting violently transported in a flood?
Yes, if your worldview demands honesty, you will do the calculation based on the actual measurements instead of demanding that they be fudged to bit predetermined outcomes. And the actual measurements require billions of years, fundamental constants changing in ways that would turn the planet into a ball of radioactive plasma or make atoms fall apart, or a pointless deceptive miracle.
How about rivers flooding? There aren’t very many dinosaur graveyards–dozens, not thousands. What there are thousands of is shallow marine deposits which show life as usual occurring for all of the organisms in them.
Precisely–why is anything freshwater or marine alive today if the flood behaved the way it is often described in popular writings?
2 Likes
T_aquaticus
(The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)
48
Another example 17 years prior to Tuomey’s assessment:
Well before Darwin published it was already understood that the Earth was quite old and that there had never been a recent global flood that was responsible for the geologic record.
2 Likes
T_aquaticus
(The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)
49
Your insistence that science be rejected if it doesn’t align with your interpretation of the Holy Bible is a worldview coloring the evidence.
What is the interpretation being forced onto the data? Examples?
You never explain why the observed similarities have to exist in order to accomplish this task. For example, why would this require a nested hierarchy? Why would ATP synthase have to be more similar between a human and another primate than between a human and a rodent? Why would the human and primate ATP synthase gene be genetically equidistant to the rodent gene? Why would this even require the same codon usage or tRNAs?
Your position doesn’t explain any of the patterns of similarities and differences seen in the data.
Here are 29+ potential falsifications for the theory of evolution:
In response, why don’t you show how YEC is falsifiable?
What features would a geologic formation need in order to falsify a recent global flood or a young Earth?
What features would a fossil need in order to falsify separate creation of humans and other apes?
What genetic patterns would falsify separate creation of humans and other apes?
How is your position falsifiable?
That would actually mean something if you had objective criteria for determining which species belong to a kind. But you don’t.
That could also mean something if you actually had an objective method for measuring complex specified information in real genomes. But you don’t. This is just more rhetoric that doesn’t even begin to address the genetic data.
You need more than rhetoric to falsify evolution. You need actual data. So far, all you have is rhetoric, bald assertions, and no references to anything observable.
What wouldn’t be consistent with a recent global flood?
Actually, you haven’t shown that any increase in what you call information needed to occur. This is mainly because you have no way of measuring information in genomes so you have no way of determining if it has increased or decreased. Until you show us an objective method for measuring information in actual DNA sequences this will continue to be an empty assertion.
Where is the evidence demonstrating the fossil record is a record of a recent global flood?
The rather obvious explanation. They are the accumulation of fossils over long spans of time. A single flood certainly can’t explain them.
That’s 2,000 feet of broken up crinoids (see below). Floods don’t do that.
If a flood came along you would get a handful of crinoids preserved here and there, not 2,000 feet of them.
Again, you just assume.
The ratio of isotopes in rocks is a measurement. There is no interpretation going on. Anyone can go and measure those ratios. There is a clear correlation between these ratios and the fossil species found below and above them. Floods don’t do this. There is no explanation for this in YEC.
Do you accept the Germ Theory of Disease? If so, does this mean you also have to accept abiogenesis because those germs have to come from somewhere?
Do you accept the science of meteorology? Does this also mean you have to accept the Big Bang as the source for all of the atoms that make up our atmosphere that then produce weather?
This question has many answers of course. And they return a verdict of no recent global flood. But of course, the point is that Burrawang ignoring all of these probably means he will cling to his interpretation of the Bible no matter what the evidence says.
It’s a common procedure from YEC advocates: use a process when it affirms what they want, deny its validity when it doesn’t.
Yet archaeology is invoked to support that position – i.e. biased sampling is occurring.
The irony here being that YEC interprets the Bible through a worldview that does not come from and does not align with the Bible.’
And yet you deny the validity of results that have nothing to do with any “deep time” assumption, e.g. that the Himalayas and other upthrust mountain ranges are at the very least hundreds of thousands of years old.
Why do you insist on this lie? “Increase in complex specified information” has been observed (I refrain from again repeating my oft-repeated example).
I could state that it is palpably clear that you being a human person is not true but is FALSE. After all, computer coding students in universities have written programs that give responses at least as complex as your posts here.
So forget your statements, let’s see your science! your math!
You mean the human tradition about the Flood that you force onto the Bible. Neither the Hebrew of the OT nor the Greek of the NT support a global Flood (unless you go with the ancient worldview that the earth is a flat disk surrounded by a great circular ocean beneath a solid sky-dome; then it can be argued for rather well).
Many of which are mixed in between layers of sedimentary rock that was laid down slowly and calmly, and other that was laid down in dry conditions, and other that has never been exposed to salt water, and other that was erupted, all in sequences that cannot be made to fit a single rapid event.
That can’t be found in the text. The most that can be established from what Jesus is recorded as saying is that He knew that everyone was familiar with the Noah story.
You make all these claims about matters scientific yet you can’t even read the Bible clearly!
I didn’t deal with fossils much in my geology courses, but I dealt with them enough to know that even the fossils in just western North America contradict any idea that they were deposited in any single event, however catastrophic.
Of course, because as we have observed, you apply biased sampling.
That’s one way to read the Hebrew, but the more obvious way is that the waters rose a total of fifteen cubits.
Which proves that it wasn’t all laid down in a single event, but repeated processes of trees growing, dropping litter, and being turned to rock. So if they were all from a single event, that event lasted on the order of seventy years times the number of layers of forest litter.
That is so false it deserves a response that would be censored here: there are explanation for every “fossil graveyard of dinosaurs” in the world.
Common definition of a kind: a group within which natural selection can be shown to function.
But even for those who use such a definition, they deny it in practice, instead using whatever grouping is necessary to fit all the ‘kinds’ into the given dimensions of Noah’s big box.
My mind jumped to the fossil beds near me that have at least twenty meters of strata containing bivalve fossils. The bedding is such that it is obvious that these were deposited in multiple events. Judging by the intermediate layers where fossils are few or lacking, these events occurred every several hundred years.
Those periods match what can be found in terms of coastal inundations of forests.
This being the case, the necessary consequence is that all these drowned creatures would be jumbled together in a mess typical of floods. If fossils are found in progressive and segregated layers, that means there was no single event global flood. It is that simple.
We had a thread on this very topic - check it out:
T_aquaticus
(The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)
56
That would be a species. The problem is many YECs have 10s to 100s of species within a kind.
The legend Glenn Morton wrote about crinoids as well.
So just in one formation there are enough crinoid plates to cover the Earth to a depth of 8 cm. And we are being told by YECs that this formation and all of the others were laid down at the same time. Hmm, something doesn’t add up.
Quoting a short excerpt of my post that doesn’t provide the context is dubious at best.
The Holy Bible tells us that God gave every green plant for food.
Perhaps, I should have been even clearer and more explicit as I realise more and more that every single word written here on this website that doesn’t support evolution and ‘deep time’ is criticized and attacked with a vengeance.
The biological life that God created and to which I was referring was all life that was designed by God to initially eat green plants for food. Importantly, that is prior to the fall, and consequently prior to the curse that drastically changed everything on Earth from a beautiful place of harmony, to a place where pain, suffering, death, thistles and thorns then and now replace what was once beautiful and peaceful.
Whether the snails developed there feeding traits after the fall or they had it all along, but weren’t classed by God as ‘nephesh’ creatures with the breathe of life in their nostrils, I simply do not know. But perhaps one day we will have the answer to that question.
Well actually Timothy, no it isn’t.
This common cry here of ‘That’s a lie’is the lie.
I realise that you may find the reality of real dinosaur bone and unpermineralized dinosaur bone and a broad range of dinosaur proteins, and intact soft tissue such as red blood cells, blood vessels, nerve fibres disturbing to the worldview that you hold to that the dinosaurs died out sixty six million plus years ago and your reaction is completely understandable given that the organic components listed above simply in a rapidly growing number of specimens of dinosaur bones from a broad range of dinosaur species around the world cannot have possibly stayed intact as they commonly have in all the states they have been found to come in, i.e., unmineralised, unpermineralised and mineralised for sixty plus million years. I get it that it sounds completely impossible and that is because it is completely impossible.
It is obvious that the dinosaur bones are nowhere near as old as we have been led to believe.
It is time to start trusting the Holy Bible as accurate history in the book of Genesis. The Global Flood of Noah wiped out the dinosaurs except for those young breeding pairs that were onboard the Ark of Noah and the descendants of those animals have clearly become extinct sometime since the flood, sometime within about the last 4,000 years and quite possibly not even that long ago for some species.
The Biblical timeline of the Global Flood is perfectly consistent with the discovery of unmineralised, unpermineralized and mineralised dinosaur bones that contain in varying levels of decomposition soft tissue and proteins and structures as mentioned above that makes a whole lot more sense than trying to believe the impossible, that is that the bones have survived intact as they are for sixty plus million years!
The deceitful false statements come thick and fast on this site as if they were true. And unfortunately, no doubt some are swayed to swallow the lies.
Soft tissue is found within dinosaur bones in a range of states, some are completely mineralised, some permineralised, and some as unmineralised well preserved soft tissue.
The ever increasing collection of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is from a broad range of dinosaur species from all over the world, and has been analysed in a variety of ways from Raman spectroscopy to radiocarbon dating that actually returned ages of dinosaur bones ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years old, that is far less than the claimed 65+ Million years that is indoctrinated into students at secular institutions.
If you are interested in reading about the Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore where a paper was presented with the above young date range for dinosaur bone radiocarbon, the article is titled:
Radiocarbon in dino bones - International conference result censored
You may also like to view the Youtube video titled;
Carbon-14 dated dinosaur bones - under 40,000 years old
that is referenced in the above article at:
The first link about the International conference also has over 20 hyperlinks to articles that confirm the validity of dinosaur soft tissue finds.
There are some fascinating articles in that about soft tissue that expose the deception of your bold statement here.
Of course some are mineralised, and yes some are only remnants, but there are also other dinosaur bones that contain soft fibrous tissue, and intact blood vessels, and actin, and collagen and osteocytes (bone cells) with intact filopodia and nuclei, and many other original dinosaur soft tissue proteins and structures, including the presence of double stranded, double helical DNA, a very fragile sugar carrying a few nucleotide base pairs of coded information, thus your tacit claim that there are only remnants is clearly false and quite misleading to any people who may respect you and believe that you always tell the truth, which is sadly not so.
The Global Flood of Noah’s day was a supernatural event that completely reshaped the planet from a single landmass surrounded by water to the present day configuration of islands and continents we now observe.
The global flood was a catastrophic event that by its very nature, and the speed at which the tectonic plates were moved around under the global ocean, would obviously have ripped apart the Earths crust at plate subduction zones, and massive earthquakes and volcanism would have torn the surface of the planet well beneath the surface of the global ocean; suffice to say there would have been enormous volumes of sediments swirling around beneath the waves.
The massive number of extinct volcanoes all over the planet is clearly evidence of the violence that occurred at this time under the sea, with a small number of volcanoes still active from time to time today.
Thus, the waters of the one year Global Flood of Noah’s day would have been extremely turbulent, and probably involved vast surging tidal waves; suffice to say that as the ‘Fountains of the Great Deep’ opened up, the Global Flood would have had all the ingredients necessary to create the massive sedimentary deposits now found hardened all over the planet to depths of up to 12,000 metres or almost 40,000 feet depths of continuous sedimentary rock strata.
I would expect that you are aware of the branch of operational science called ‘taphonomy’ that performs analysis of fossil samples to determine the processes that affect organisms that die and become fossils including their decay, burial and preservation; i.e., how long they will survive under various conditions and temperatures.
Thus, I am sure that you will be interested to know that taphonomic analysis of collagen has been performed and revealed that it would have completely broken down within 300,000 to 900,000 years. Even under freezing liquid nitrogen, the laws of thermodynamics dictate that the chemical bonds still breakdown over time.
Most dinosaurs lived in warmer climates and, if so, the collagen would have all decayed in under 15,000 years. Evolutionists claim that the last dinosaurs went extinct over sixty five million years ago, yet collagen is still present. The implications are obvious, those bones are not millions of years old!
And yes there will be earthquakes in various places even now as the Bible faithfully tells us.
Really Tim?
There are so many undisputed examples of sediment laminae being deposited, usually laid down at the rate of three layers at once in flumes perpendicular to the high speed sediment laden water flow.
I’m surprised you’re apparently unaware of this research, let alone for example, the graphic rapid deposition of sediment that is now hard solid rock that was deposited in 1980 by the eruption of Mt St. Helens. The sediment came from some of the blasted out part of the mountain itself and some of the pyroclastic flows from the volcano mixed with water in Spirit lake that broke its banks and caused the high speed transportation of sediment in water that laid down the thousands of fine lamina layers in a single afternoon!
Also, you may find a fully referenced research paper informative that was written by an Australian geophysicist who is an honest Christian who sees what is so obvious to many intelligent scientists around the world, that the Biblical account of the Global Flood in Noah’s day is very real and accurate history that is readily validated by visual field inspection of drill cores, and exposed strata in mines of the relatively deep, extensive extents of sedimentary rock deposits all over the Earth. I would encourage you to work your way through his calculations and see why he arrived at the conclusions he came to.
The fully referenced research paper titled: Sediment Transport and the Genesis Flood — Case Studies including the Hawkesbury Sandstone, Sydney
can be downloaded as a PDF at:
Also, I think you would also benefit greatly by reading an article titled” Polystrate trees and ‘fossil forests’ explained by Flood log mats
at: Polystrate trees and ‘fossil forests’ explained
But Tim, you are missing the point entirely, for starters you are so locked into the ‘deep time’ evolution paradigm, that I understand it is very difficult for you to comprehend what is quite obvious to others who have a worldview that is completely based upon the Holy Bibles accounts of the creation in six ordinary days and the Global Flood of Noah’s day.
So I reiterate, please just, “think about the masses of plant and animal fossils that have been unearthed around the world that contain a wide variety of both terrestrial and marine plants and animals [ including dinosaurs], all jumbled up and buried together.
How can this be possible unless there truly was a Global Flood?” How do you account for that undisputed reality?
Yes there are fine sediments that take long periods to settle in still water today, but just as I have no idea of the precise conditions and mechanisms at play during the Global Flood, you also do not know if the sediments were flocculated out of solution or whatever may have occurred!
I expect that there are likely any number of explanations of how very fine sediments can drop out of colloidal solutions that today we know nothing about as we weren’t there to witness the deposition, but the presence of fine sediment layers is by no means as problematic as explaining the mass fossil graveyards that contain a wide variety of both terrestrial and marine plants and animals including dinosaurs, all jumbled up and buried together, that you conveniently avoided addressing.
Again Tim, really?
How could you possibly know whether the Ark that Noah constructed was seaworthy or not seaworthy?
Such utter nonsense and presumption and guesswork you have come up with here! The flood was an event that totally reshaped the planet.
The Biblical account of the Flood in Noah’s day is ever so clearly written in Genesis. This account describes a single landmass on Earth that was surrounded by water and was then COMPLETELY submerged by the Global Flood, that after one year the Islands and Continents positions as we know them to be today, were formed during that very same Global Flood.
Please think about this. Do you believe that the only Living God of the Holy Bible who we refer to as The Son, and Jesus Christ, and our Lord and Saviour, created the galaxies and the stars?
How little a thing it would have been for our Loving Lord God to keep Noah and all the animals onboard the Ark that He, yes, God Himself brought to the Ark to be the breeding pair representatives for each of the Biblical kinds from which so many different (man classified species) animals would come.
All that is required is faith, and trusting in God, that His Word is Holy, Faithful, and True.
Read the account of the Global Flood in Genesis and believe it, for it did indeed occur. You can completely forget all your fallible speculations about a local flood and sky domes etc… and just Trust God at His Word. He is Faithful and True forever and ever.
And Tim, perhaps you could explain the glaring inconsistency with what I previously wrote, please pasted here again for you reading ease:
“that God had Noah go through all he went through building the Ark and being mocked by the people up until the day that Noah entered the Ark, if the flood was merely a local flood?”
You quoted this text from my post but you made absolutely no attempt whatsoever to explain why you actually believe that God had Noah build the Ark, that was far more than a marathon project, think about it, when Noah could have simply walked to outside the ‘local flood’ area. Building such a giant ship makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER for a local flood!
Noah and his sons had to fell the trees manually, they had to cut the lumber manually, they had to transport the cut lumber to the construction site manually, and then they had to build the Ark manually, with no chainsaws, no electric thicknessers, no electric planers, no circular saws, no electric drills, no hydraulic mobile cranes etc., etc., etc. over I guess probably about a hundred years, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, I don’t know how long it took exactly, but having felled trees and milled timber and having built buildings, with modern chainsaws, sawmills, thicknessers, planes, drills, angle grinders, etc. I can assure you it would have taken them a very, very long time to build the Ark!
Building the ship called the Ark to the dimensions provided for us I the Holy Bible would have been a gargantuan, mammoth task that would have been extremely strenuous and exhaustively tiring hard labour, for decade, after decade, after decade, after decade, after decade the manual labour utterly was relentless! Noah knew that the Ark must be built exactly as God had commanded Noah to build it! Do you actually get the picture?
I’m very sorry, but the Truth must NOT be hidden behind the deception that I have personally seen far too many times on this website. The claims by some people here, including yourself, that the GLOBAL FLOOD was merely a LOCAL FLOOD is severely lacking credibility at every level.
No matter what way you care to look at it, the whole Local Flood diatribe is not only a totally inane falsehood, but it also ignores the absolutely sane reality that if it was only local, then:
God would NOT have had to bring two (a male and a female) of every Biblical kind of animal on Earth to Noah to be saved on the Ark when the Global Flood came and drowned all life on the surface of the Earth.
Noah would not have had to have laboured exceedingly hard for such a great many years (perhaps around 100 years) of extremely difficult work if all he had to do was simply walk with his family for a week or two until he reached higher ground beyond the geographical extent of the imaginary Local Flood.
And even more importantly, the Holy Bible informs us that the purpose of the Global Flood was to cleanse the whole Earth of the evil being performed upon it by all flesh, the evil people that lived then and the animal beasts. If the flood was merely a local flood it would not accomplish the purpose of destroying ALL flesh upon the face of the Earth.
The Holy Bible clearly tells us: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
The Holy Bible tells us from God’s perspective, He Who knows all there is to know about everything, Who knows end before the beginning.
The text of the Holy Scriptures doesn’t say anywhere anything about a discrete area that He made a Local Flood to happen within, the text is abundantly and ever so transparently clear that the FLOOD IS GLOBAL IN EXTENT with its main purpose to wipe out ALL LIFE upon the FACE OF THE EARTH.
The Holy Bible clearly tells us:
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Why do you not understand?
The Holy Bible informs us in words that faithfully record the events that actually transpired and those words couldn’t be clearer; the Holy Scriptures tell us that it was indeed a FLOOD THAT COVERED ALL THE HIGH MOUNTAINS UNDER HEAVEN and the Holy Bible even informs us the depth above the highest mountains upon the Earth at the Global Floods peak, that was of course was 15 cubits ( or about 22 feet).
Thus, if you still claim that the Flood was just a Local Flood, and you believe the words of the Holy Bible, then logically you are implicitly saying that only the area that was flooded was under Heaven, which is absurd in the extreme.
The whole planet, the entire Earth is under Heaven, and this is yet another way that our Loving Creator made it as clear as crystal that the Flood was a GLOBAL FLOOD so that no one should be in any doubt about its extent.
T
here are no if’s, no buts, no convoluted explanation’s about this and that or inane concepts or hermeneutics and exegesis that seek to justify a local flood, evolution, metal domes and other deceitful beliefs that are pushed hard and fast by some who rebelliously choose to deny the Truth we have been given by God Himself only to replace God’s Holy Word with false teachings and the fallible ideas of fallen men.
The Holy Bible is ever so clear about all of these matters, as God knew before the foundation of the world that people would come in this present generation, now and in other times also, (in the past and in the future), people who would make false and deceptive claims that the Flood was only Local to deceive as many as they possibly can with their crafty and unholy deceptions, perhaps driven by ego or perhaps wanting recognition from their peers, I don’t know, but it is a grave thing to place stumbling blocks in the way of those searching for the Truth.
The saddest thing I have witnessed here on this website is that there are many wonderful people who love God, but who are under this terrible veil of deception about ‘deep time’, evolution, the creation, and the global flood.
That deception manifests all too often with the cry of ‘lie’ when honest Christians speak the Truth as it is given to us in the Holy Bible by God Himself, through the inspired authors of each of the Holy Scriptures.
Those honest Christians are accused and mocked and bullied by gangs of web warriors on this site waiting for the next opportunity to deny that the Holy Scriptures mean precisely what they say, using persuasive arguments that appear rational when already indoctrinated enough to view the Bible in a manner that is quite different to how a searching 12 year old child would interpret it.
God is in command, He has given us His Word in the Bible and we should be humble enough to trust in Him and believe precisely what He has gone to such pains to make as clear as possible:
e.g., And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This verse from the Holy Bible clearly refers to a normal day that we are familiar with, that always has an evening and a morning.
Utter nonsense from a sadly misinformed worldview and very poor exegesis of the Holy Scriptures, particularly the Genesis historical accounts of creation, the origin of death, the global flood of Noah’s day and the delusion of evolution.
ALL THE MOUNTAINS UNDER HEAVEN clearly refers to ALL the mountains on the whole Earth.
What you appear to ignore here is that the Holy Scriptures are inspired by GOD. He is in charge here and He is the One inspiring His chosen authors to write down what He wants us all to know.
When the Holy Bible clearly and unambiguously states that ALL THE MOUNTAINS UNDER HEAVEN WERE SUBMERGED ABOUT 22 FEET UNDERWATER, YOU CAN BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THE FLOOD WAS GLOBAL!
Okay, my eyes are hanging out on storks and I’m knackered, so it’s time for bed for me…
Unless you have a multiple examples from different locations of unmineralised dinosaur bone - unmineralised, not partly mineralised or only slightly mineralised - it actually is a lie.
Well within the possible range of background noise or contamination–20,000 years is about the higest age at which 14C dating seems to work under highly suboptimal conditions with high likelihoods of contamination. And I will note–those are still completely incompatible with 6,000 years.
There are no long-chain DNA molecules left. There are no intact hemoglobin molecules left. There are no intact easily-degraded proteins left. What is left are either breakdown products or the toughest and most protected types of soft tissues, like actin, collagen, and osteocytes.
I don’t believe that.
Not getting deposited.
Which cannot deposit clay or evaporites.
Yes–while it’s not particularly what I specialize in, but it is something that I interact with.
Except for their erosional levels correlating very closely to radiometric dating.
Except that it didn’t; and there are studies suggesting how:
Okay, yes, under certain specific conditions, there can be deposition in laminae. That still doesn’t work for clay on top of sand or shell-hardground.
This is a false equivalence–those don’t have organisms that lived and died in place in them; they don’t show clear seasonal patterns; they don’t show clear sea level cycles; etc.; etc.
That still doesn’t fix the problem of having deposits with no size-sorting at all.
Then why does the description of the Garden of Eden include reference to current rivers and geography of the Middle East?
Well, obviously it was. If it had been made the way is often depicted out of wood with a keel, it would not have been.
That’s still adding to the text–nowhere does it say “globe” and nowhere does it say anything about plate tectonics.
Which I have done repeatedly. It still doesn’t say anything about a globe.
I did not add an explanation, as you are equally capable relative to me of using the search function on this forum and finding the replies from the previous times this point was raised.
The text says “all the land”, not “all the Earth” or “all the Globe”.
A flood that covered all the high hills or mountains (depends on context as to which) in the land under the solid heavens either by 15 cubits with waters that rose by 15 cubits.
I am commanded to tell the truth. Doing so requires calling lies lies. Like claiming that Dark Matter and Dark Energy are fudge factors; or that there aren’t mechanisms for increasing the amount of information in a genome; or that transitional fossils don’t exist; or that repeated cycles in sea level in non-size sorted deposits are compatible with rapid deposition; or that rock layers with cracks in them lack cracks; or that error bars don’t exist; or that mutations are always deleterious; or that speeding up radioactive decay is a viable scientific proposal; or any number of other examples that I could cite off this forum.
True, but חֲמֵשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה אַמָּה מִלְמַעְלָה גָּבְרוּ הַמָּיִם וַיְכֻסּוּ הֶהָרִים׃ וְהַמַּיִם גָּבְרוּ מְאֹד מְאֹד עַל־הָאָרֶץ וַיְכֻסּוּ כָּל־הֶהָרִים הַגְּבֹהִים אֲשֶׁר־תַּחַת כָּל־הַשָּׁמָיִם׃ does not clearly refer to mountains rather than hills or to the Earth and not the land.
Apart from that being by Carl Weiland, who has no credibility whatsoever, it contains this gem:
All gave dates ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years, right in the ‘ballpark’ predicted by creationists
The ballpark predicted by creationists is 4,000 to 6,000 years in age, from between creation in 4004BC and the flood in 2349BC. Nothing should date at 22,000 years old. These ‘results’ would be incompatible with YEC even if they were right.
