I’m afraid you have to look in the mirror here, you and the YEC organizations you quote are doing the misinforming.
Philip J. Senter of Fayetteville State University wrote an extensive peer reviewed debunking laying out a broad ranging 13 misconceptions, including a number repeated by yourself.
He concludes
Now that plausible mechanisms and paleoenvironmental parameters that facilitate such preservation have been identified, perhaps it should be unsurprising to find preserved cells and soft tissues within bones entombed under conditions that satisfy those parameters.
It is curious that nothing seems to trigger creationists like evaluating evidence by known physical processes, such as radiometric dating or varve formation, and yet when when it comes to soft tissue remnants, they are all whipped up in favor of their favorite uniformitarianism and will brook no mechanism of preservation.
Even as remnents, the amount of dinosaur soft tissue is minute and requires high power microscopy to view. But there are plenty of mammal specimens which are tens of thousands of years old where macroscopic tissues are available. Remarkably, this includes fairly intact human brains up to 12,000 years old. Human brains preserve in diverse environments for at least 12,000 years, a timeframe much longer than the YEC 4500 years, and clearly demonstrating that soft tissue can preserve far longer than creationists allow.
So no, you cannot order dino burgers at McDonald’s, dinosaurs were not aboard any ark, and dinosaur soft tissue being a proof they were contemporary with humans serves as another demonstration of the YEC self delusion. When you have no good arguments, bad ones will have to serve.
Well - yeah. That’s kind of the point of all this! It’s like you observing …“Of course you believe the earth is round because you have no plausible alternatives” or “Of course you believe in germ theory because you have no plausible alternatives.” Everybody is still waiting for you to show “some plausible alternative”.
That’s wonderful science fiction that has next to nothing to do with the text of Genesis.
It’s the sort of rant that drove people from Christ in swarms when I was a university student and continues to drive them away today.
Why do you waste your time harping on human-invented notions that drive people from the Gospel?
Which proves that there was never a global flood.
Why do you work so hard at making the scripture look like trash?
Really, the more I read from YEC sources the more I am inclined to believe that it is the Adversary’s work, dreamed up to derail Christians from the Great Commission!
Lyell was right about them. How polystrate fossils form is being demonstrated in the present at Spirit Lake in Washington state.
For that matter, it was being demonstrated over the last century in log ponds in the U.S. Pacific Northwest.
No, it doesn’t – that’s a tradition of men that has been imported into the text and expanded by imaginative science fiction.
Sorry, but to get what YEC does requires throwing out the grammatical-historical method and making stuff up.
I do – that’s why I reject YEC; it doesn’t fit the text.
Except that the text does not talk about a global flood, it talks about a flood that covered the known world.
Using the upper case for that final noun shows an ignorance of the text, and/or an intent to import a MSWV into ancient writing. Neither of those is faithful to the scriptures.
Using “ALL” in that way shows a disregard for the Hebrew in its ordinary use of language.
False – the text doesn’t say that.
This again demonstrates that YEC relies not just on lies about science but lies about the text of the Bible.’
I take on YEC “web warriors” for the very reason that they do not accept that the Holy Scriptures mean precisely what they say; YEC requires mangling the grammar and vocabulary and denying the context of the scriptures. Often YECists claim to use the grammatical-historical method, but then proceed to completely ignore both grammar and history.
YEC tramples what this is really about.
Question: what was the relation of night time to the rest of creation in the ANE, especially in Egypt where Moses was educated?
What the writer could see, beneath the solid sky-dome covering the flat earth he believed in.
Please stop tearing pieces out of the scriptures and forcing them to be read from a modern scientific worldview! It makes Christians and thus Christ look like idiots and as a result drives people from the Gospel. Let the Bible be what it is, not what you would like it to be.
FWIW, Grok judges this “correct but needing some clarification”, writing that “the “soft tissues” found in dinosaur fossils are not pristine, living tissues but rather chemically altered remnants”.
Utter nonsense, the Bible clearly informs us that God SPOKE the creation into existence over six days that had evenings and mornings. That sounds very much to me like six normal days.
The lie is found where those that insist that a careful reading of the ever so very clear text in Genesis 1 when viewed through their worldview, (i.e., deep time & evolution) actually means something completely different to the honest Truth of God creating by His Word of command, resulting in, “and it was so”.
I am not the one lying here, the inane belief that God created over billions of years by evolution is the lie, that is ever so clear just by reading Genesis 1
Claiming that Genesis 1 doesn’t mean what it so obviously does mean is the lie, and the contorted framework edifice that is constructed to explain why the text means something else other than what it so clearly states are yet other glaring lies.
Why do you really insist on contradicting what we have been told by our Loving, Honest, Holy and Just Creator God plainly in the Holy Bible? The order that God created is the order that God created, you would be well advised to believe the Holy Bible rather than the speculations of fallible men.
The order of creation that is ever so clearly listed for our edification, so clearly in fact, that even a small child will and can understand the veracity and the majesty of what God has done.
But just BECAUSE the clearly stated order doesn’t fit into your worldview, you reject the Holy Scripture and attempt to convince others that the text is not saying what it ever so clearly and ever so obviously is saying to deceptively introduce the lie of deep time and evolution.
Of course the Bible tells us how God created!
There is no inconsistency whatsoever, that is a figment of your imagination, caused by your evolutionary ‘deep time’ worldview.
God is not limited in what He does and He is not inconsistent!
The Holy Bible tells us ever so clearly that God SPOKE the whole of creation into existence over six ordinary days.
But, that doesn’t limit God to do whatever He so pleases, such as breathing the breath of life into Adams nostrils that he became a living man.
And if God so chose to create by breaking the bread and the fish and create ex nihilo, more bread and fish to feed thousands of hungry people, what is that to you, and why do you set yourself up against your Holy Creator by denying what He has so plainly told us, just to force the Holy Scriptures into alignment with the worldview of the fallible 'forensic science’ of men, who are not omnipotent nor omniscient.
Science is a wonderful endeavour but it should never be put on a pedestal to contradict the Holy Bible, that is wrong and it is folly.
With regard to Genesis 1 here, why do you insist on saying the Holy Bible says, what it ever so clearly does NOT say at all in any shape or form simply because you want to prove the deceiving lie of evolution to be real so that those who read this are deceived?
Then you falsely accuse me of lying, when you’re committing the very thing that you yourself accuse me of.
Please accept my sincere apologies, but where I come from here in Australia, we call that hypocrisy.
Yes, at least we can agree here on that reality, that is further supported elsewhere in the Holy Bible.
But I really do not understand your thinking here, it appears irrational to me. The creation was by definition a supernatural act of God.
He commanded and it was so. That is categorically clear to me at least.
When He spoke the components of the cosmos into existence, though not specifically listed, you know things that we now know exist like starts, galaxies, planets, nebulae, comets, black holes etc… that was a supernatural act of God Himself. The stuff of the universe had a cause and that cause is God.
And even more importantly is the reality that He is holding the creation in existence right now! Yes, right now He is causing the whole of creation to remain in existence!
No one here is bringing your words of 'magical power’ into this forum except you yourself.
We DO NEED TO ACCEPT THAT GOD DID CREATE as He has faithfully and honestly told us He created in Genesis 1.
That is not negotiable!
Either you believe the honest Truth of the Holy Scriptures as they are written, or you don’t. That is your free choice to make.
I choose the honest, clear, uncomplicated, straightforward Holy text of Scripture as written to mean exactly what is so clearly written.
What you believe is between you and God.
The second sentence of yours that I have quoted above is “The most natural meaning is that God had help from angels and/or the host of heaven…”
Why do you seem to believe that God, Who is all Powerful, all Knowing and Loving toward us, needed any help or assistance to create is completely unclear to me.
The only Living God Who created heaven and the earth does NOT need help to do anything He so chooses to do; He may have enlisted the angels, if He so chose to do that for reasons known to Himself, but I see nowhere in Genesis 1 any reference to the Creator enlisting the help of angels.
Look at the text, there is not even the slightest hint that God needed any help to create:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.
And as you would be aware the rest of the text of Genesis 1 follows in the same vein…
Again, Sorry Mitchell, but this is yet more nonsensical diatribe that may make sense to you from your worldview, but honestly from where I stand, your reasoning is more than a tad off beam.
There is no inconsistency here that I can see?
Doesn’t the Holy Bible tell us ever so clearly inform us:
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Except for the sun, the moon and the stars, the Holy Bible doesn’t specifically name any other cosmic components that we can now detect with instruments and relatively recently now have assigned modern names to those components of the cosmos, however, it seems completely rational to me, that as God created the stars, there is no reason to believe He didn’t arrange them into what we now know are galaxies. And aren’t stars fusion reactors as far as we know?
As for Black Holes I have no way of knowing if God supernaturally created them ex nihilo, or if they formed by the physical constants and laws of physics that God set up, coalescing from the stars and stuff of the cosmos that God initially made. Ultimately though, we are well informed, because aren’t we told in no uncertain terms in the Gospel of John 1 that:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Thus, for me at least, it is abundantly clear that God made everything that is made and that includes ALL the components of the cosmos.
The writer of Genesis could not know the light from Andromeda had traveled for millions of years, and the milky way was not a band of light on a solid firmament. You have no such excuse.
I have never accused anyone of being an unbeliever, and I am not worthy to judge anyone and would never make such a judgement.
Yes of course, I do see that it serves your objective here well, that is, to establish yourself as a self-proclaimed Biblical language expert, to continually throw mud in the hope of discrediting me and others like me who proclaim the Truth of the Holy Bibles clear message in Genesis of the creation week and the Global Flood that exposes the false teaching of evolution theory.
As I have said many times before, Jesus, Who is the Creator Himself attested to the validity of the Catastrophic Flood that drowned all human and terrestrial animal life not onboard the Ark as REAL HISTORY, so I don’t understand why you seem to claim here on this website that you know better than Jesus.
Your words imply that Jesus was wrong!
May it never be!
Well actually I was responding to a false claim made by T_aquaticus that was specifically:
In context what I actually stated was:
Really?What unmitigated tripe.All of the very humble Christians that I know and the others that I know of, and others that I have corresponded with, who all believe the Bible to be God’s Holy Word to mankind would very strongly disagree with you there. Yet another falsehood to discredit Bible believing Christians.
Thus, the selective quoting by you of what I said, if you were honest, would include the context as to what precisely I was talking about, but of course that would not suit the deception or the smear campaign you engage in, always looking for ways to denigrate, and attempting to make Bible believing Christians look as bad as you can possibly make them look.
I truly hope that your eyes are opened to the reality of the Holy Bibles clear message in Genesis of the creation week and the Global Flood that also serves to expose the egregious false teaching of evolution.
Well, I get tired too, of the egregious lies, and the common dishonest use of out of context quotes by yourself against genuine Bible believing Christians.
Why do you not understand what is ever so clear?
John tells us that:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Of course, the Bible tells us how God created. He SPOKE the creation into existence.
Genesis tells us that:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. {the light from…: Heb. between the light and between the darkness} 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. {firmament: Heb. expansion} 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. {grass: Heb. tender grass} 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: {the day…: Heb. between the day and between the night} 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. {to rule the day…: Heb. for the rule of the day, etc.} 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. {moving: or, creeping} {life: Heb. soul} {fowl…: Heb. let fowl fly} {open…: Heb. face of the firmament of heaven} 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. {moveth: Heb. creepeth}
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. {bearing…: Heb. seeding seed} {yielding…: Heb. seeding seed} 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. {life: Heb. a living soul}
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. {And the evening…: Heb. And the evening was, and the morning was etc.}
So Roymond, please, why is it so difficult for you to graciously accept the crystal clear Truth of HOW God created, i.e., He SPOKE by the Word of His command,
as we are reliably informed by the Holy Bible in Genesis 1 many times the following straightforward easily comprehended words: And God said,9 times ………………. and it was so. 6 times
Utter nonsense.
Just because you choose to interpret the Holy Scriptures in Genesis through a worldview that promotes what is virtually the precise opposite meaning of what is so plainly and clearly written about the creation and about the catastrophic flood that destroyed all life on the land in whose nostrils was the breath of life; that doesn’t give you an entitlement or licence to invent lies and deceive honest Christians about what Bible believing Christians honestly believe about the creation and the catastrophic flood of Noah’s day, that clearly covered ALL the land that then existed, and extinguished ALL life that was then alive, that remained outside the Ark.
I tire of having to over and over again refute the deception repeated by you ad nauseum, as if by repetition, or perhaps having last say on these forums, you believe the weak in faith will be swayed to believe the lie.
In Genesis 1, God spoke the command and it was so IMMEDIATELY, NOT IN A HUNDRED OR A THOUSAND OR A BILLION OR A TRILLION YEARS, IT WAS IMMEDIATELY SO WITHOUT ANY DELAY.
Why you feel the need to incorporate a massive delay between God’s command and the creation occurring is unclear.
I realise the delay is necessary to provide time to make evolution more palatable as it of necessity needs billions of years to even have the slightest hope of being believable.
But, the problem is that Genesis 1 is clearly recounting what happened in the beginning when God created, and the Holy Scripture here is at great pains to make it abundantly clear that it all occurred within one calendar week, that is within six ordinary days duration as we know six days to be.
Thus yet again, the deception is exposed for what it is, a blatant lie.
But again, more accusations and lies against good Christian people who disagree with your distorted worldview. The accusations you make are shameful and are false accusations as I have explained many times before.
Yet again more accusations and falsehoods, that as usual is just glibly stated as though there is no onus on the accuser to provide a detailed explanation of precisely what ‘lies’ you are claiming have been told.
Until you do that your words are empty, accusations against good people that have no basis in Truth.
Where in the Bible did Jesus state specifically that Noah’s flood was real history? All I have ever seen is a mention of Noah which could be interpreted as reference to a myth.
I was actually commending you in that post. You don’t seem to be falling as heavily into the trap of trying to portray the theory of evolution as faith or a religion, a mistake I see many other YEC/OEC and ID supporters fall into. As a corollary, you don’t see scientists trying to discount YEC by calling it scientific, and there’s a reason for that. However, we do see many YECs claiming evolution is a religion and based on faith. I think that says a lot of how they (not necessarily you) view the interaction of faith and science.
Scriptures don’t falsify scientific theories. They never have. Scientific theories are based on observable facts, not religious beliefs.
Worse yet, you are taking a position that makes the Bible false in the same way Bible based arguments for Geocentrism and a Flat Earth make the Bible false. Even when Cardinal Bellarmine was arguing against Galileo’s claims of Heliocentrism he was also careful to point out that if the facts came out for Heliocentrism then it was the interpretations of the Bible that needed to change.
The facts point to an old Earth, a complete lack of a recent global flood, and common ancestry for life just as much as they point to the Earth moving about the Sun.
Hi Ron,
I don’t doubt that you see it that way, as you clearly have a ‘deep time’ evolution believing worldview, but from where I stand, that is, from the perspective of my worldview, it is abundantly crystal clear to me that Christians who accept evolution and ‘deep time’ as proven fact have compromised by accommodating a belief that sets itself up against what is taught in the Holy Bible.
Sorry to disappoint you Ron, the shoe doesn’t fit.
I don’t accept for a millisecond the deceitful distortion you offer here when the precise opposite is true.
But don’t believe me, believe the Holy Bible that clearly informs us all what in Truth, really occurred.
Yes, the vast majority of educated people around the world have the ‘deep time’ evolution worldview that far exceeds the numbers of those that have the worldview that I hold to. But this is not about popularity or numbers, this is about the Truth of the Holy Bible and trusting God.
If it were about numbers being the correct way for determining what the Truth is, then I guess the millions that perished in the Global Flood would not have perished and the eight on board the Ark would have perished, but again, praise be to God, it is not about the numbers of adherents, it is about righteousness and the Truth as clearly laid out in God’s Holy Word for our instruction and edification, thus God saved righteous Noah and his family and the entire remainder of humanity that were by far the vast majority perished without a trace.
Let’s just examine this out of context quote from one of my posts by putting it back into its true context. I was responding to your claim below in italics that:
“there are archaeological sites within the area of the Flood that go back as far as 7,000 BC, which contradict the YEC claims, i.e. they contradict a literal reading of the scripture text – which is sufficient to indicate that a literal reading is foolish.
With my reply below in italics:
You may choose to believe what you have written, but if you are completely honest, you will freely admit that your claim of 7,000 BC is wholly based on a secular dating methodology that in all honesty cannot be accurately calibrated, at all, and relies on spurious assumptions to achieve that date that conflicts with the genealogies as set out in the Holy Bible.”
So please be a bit more specific, what are these finds that have been dated at 7,000 BC or 9,000 years ago?
How were those dates calculated?
Yes, all those are fine and correct during the normal day to day life when no supernatural events are occurring, I agree with you wholeheartedly for normal day to day life here on Earth.
But honestly, what you appear to be avoiding or perhaps not realizing is the clear reality that the Global Flood was a supernatural judgement by God upon on Earth, that totally reshaped the surface of the planet.
God was sorry that He had made mankind because of the evil and violence that was being perpetrated by mankind upon the Earth prior to passing His judgement and bringing a Catastrophic Flood upon the Earth to destroy ALL flesh except for Noah and his family.
But Timothy, what is it that makes you so certain, that when God executes a judgement (such as the Global Flood in Noah’s day, or when He performs a supernatural miracle such as raising a dead person back to being alive again, or creating thousands of fish and loaves of bread out of nothing, or calming the wind and the waves at His command), that what we consider to be normal will apply during those extraordinary events?
As I have said before, I will trust in God’s Word over the fallible wisdom of men.
No, if you read the text in the context it was written, you will see it’s not slander, it’s honest and real. From what I have seen in my short time here on Earth, it appears to me that remaining silent about one’s Christian beliefs is always the easier path to take in secular and academic spheres, and that also applies to when findings that aren’t in accord with the ‘deep time’ evolution status quo miasma are made, they are left out because a veritable hornets nest is stirred up if the apple cart is rocked too severely, and I know of people who have lost their jobs, their funding grants etc… just for being honest.
I strongly recommend that you watch the free movie titled:
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (full movie) (Ben Stein)
on Youtube at:
The rest of your comments have already been addressed.
God bless,
jon
But that comes from starting with a modern scientific worldview instead of asking what kind of literature Genesis 1 actually is.
I don’t think this question has been answered yet so I’ll toss it out again:
Can you tell the theological significance of “evening . . . morning” in the first Creation story?
No, it isn’t, since scholars long before evolution was even thought of came to different conclusions about the age of Creation, based entirely on Genesis 1, and those conclusion ranged from millions of year to a trillion. My favorite is still the one by several Hebrew scholars who concluded that the universe started out as the smallest thing possible but rapidly expanded, thinning the fluid (“waters”) that filled the universe until light could shine, at which point God commanded light to be; and that the Earth is uncountably old and the universe older still. That sounds a lot like a layman’s description of the Big Bang, but it comes from the eighth century – before we had microscopes or telescopes.
No, the lie is that Genesis means what it looks like to you: that is not merely false, it is arrogantly and pridefully false.
I come from the perspective of the Hebrew text, and that text just doesn’t say what you demand that it must.
Here’s another question that never gets answered:
Where in the text of scripture does it say that there is any intent by the Holy Spirit to teach science?
I keep telling YECers that but they never pay attention.
Have you ever stopped to thing just how anthropomorphic the language there is?
Or to make a mockery of the Bible, which YEC does.
He didn’t say that. Slow down and read what was written.
You make that accusation repeatedly, and you judge others even more often. I count at least a half dozen instances in your last post that I responded to, judging and implying that others are unbelievers.
My goal is to uphold the scriptures. That I happen to have a degree in biblical languages merely helps me to do that. That you don’t care about the languages and clearly don’t want to hear about them shows disrespect for the scriptures and for Him Who inspired them.
Yes, I do so hope! Because you mangle the scriptures, treating the grammatical-historical method like trash, making the scriptures look idiotic and driving people from the Gospel.
I wish you did! But you don’t start with the scriptures, you start with the assumption that a modern scientific-materialist worldview is correct and work to force the scriptures to fit it.
Where does the Bible say it intends to teach science? If you can’t find that in the Bible, then you aren’t starting with the Bible.
The starting point for any piece of literature is to ask what it is. YEC fails to do that, it assumes it to be something recognizable without needing to study, from a MSWV. Indeed the criteria used to say that the first Creation story is history mean that John Grisham’s books and John Steinbeck’s qualify as history.
No, He didn’t – you’re adding that human tradition to the text.
I have never in my life smeared a Bible-believing Christian. I state unhappy facts about YECists who call actual Bible-believing Christians unbelievers
That happened when I read those in the Hebrew and found out just how much human tradition has been passed off as what the scriptures say.
How?
Where does the scripture say it intends to teach science?
That’s the core YEC belief, that the scripture teaches us science. Where in scripture do you find that?
That’s not in the text. It could be; Mark uses the word often enough in his Gospel, but Moses doesn’t say it a single time in Genesis.
Sure, it’s a logical conclusion, but I’m trying to make clear to you just how much is assumed about the text when we read it.
I don’t assume anything – I ask what is in the text. If it’s not in the text, the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire it. I will not make things up that were not inspired.
Where do the scriptures say they intend to teach science?
My worldview as far as the scriptures go is that I will not say what the text does not.
No – you make that claim.
That’s because the scriptures don’t care about scientific theories! They care about God and His relationship to people.
B, your problem here is that you think that you know more about science than people with science degrees and know more about what the Bible says than people who read it in the original languages.
Absolute hogwash and nonsense of the highest order.
I repeat, “How could you possibly know what sampling I have conducted?” Specifically?
Yet, even more absolute hogwash and nonsense of the highest order. The measurements to which you refer are not in units of time are they?
They are measurements of other variables that are then INTERPRETED within the worldview of the researcher.
We all have worldviews, I do, you do, everyone does.
When trying to determine the age of antiquities and artifacts, those worldviews of necessity must make assumptions in order to convert the ever so precisely made measurements into date ranges or an age if you prefer for the artifact!
To claim anything else is where the lie, lies!
Yet again more unmitigated hogwash and nonsense to a high degree!
Egregious falsehood, compounding upon further falsehood.
All that I can extract from your comment here is that of your complete ignorance of how the forensic sciences operate when attempting to ascertain the age of an artefact or rock from the distant past. Yes very accurate instruments are used to make very precise measurements, but no matter what type of analysis is performed, the worldview of the researcher will greatly affect how those accurate measurements are converted into units of time, that is, an assumed age for the artefact. The age of the sample can NEVER be directly measured from any ancient sample whatsoever!
Of course, usually the reigning paradigm of ‘deep time’ will be adopted in most labs, that will determine what is an acceptable age, and in most cases that will be the worldview of the researcher and as a consequence the ruling paradigm will directly affect the age of the artefact arrived at.
Before objections are raised here, I would like to explain further.
Unfortunately, and not all the time, but there are clearly some instances of when samples are analysed by researchers operating under a ‘deep time’ billions of years paradigm, where the sample, because of the depth or strata that it was found located in, is expected to return a date of around 10 million years, but the sample after the conversion is applied, actually returns an age of say 20,000 years, the sample is considered unreliable or ‘contaminated’ and the result thrown out and further tests are run that confirm the paradigm and those are the dates that are published.
Nothing whatsoever is forced onto the text of the Holy Bible!
The Holy Scriptures are more than capable of straightforwardly speaking for themselves without any need to be forced to comply with your convoluted worldview.
Your constant ‘dog at a bone’ type attacks are truly not appreciated and only serve to discredit any credibility you still have within this forum.
Are you able to reason and deduce simple things?
I expect you will reply, “of course you are”.
Well, how do you think, the inspired author of Genesis was able to recount the creation account for the first five days, when mankind hadn’t even been created?
When you answer that, you will know that the eyewitness is our Lord and Saviour Himself.
More obfuscation!
Hogwash and nonsense.
And yet again taken out of context, a fact that doesn’t auger well for a clear understanding, in fact I had to go back to the actual text to get a grip on what in world you’re talking about
Yes, it has become clear enough what is occurring here, with yet another attack for the sake of it as far as I can ascertain.
The actual words of Roymond to which I was responding in context:
And my reply below in italics:
"Well of course that particular Holy Bible verse from Genesis 1 does NOT have any bearing on ‘evolution’, simply because evolution is a man made construct, a false edifice leading many people astray from the truth written in God’s Holy Word."
Thus unfortunately, for you Roymond the deceit of your lie is utterly exposed for what precisely it is.
Your claim that I said that this verse, “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” is about evolution is clearly false.
What utter nonsense. What a profoundly obvious ‘lie’ that is absolutely clear for all to see what you pretend is truth.
After such an egregious falsity, I see little point discussing anything with you.
I wish you well, but have not the time to expend on what appears to me to be nothing more than a litany of mischievous false accusations.
No, the assumption is nothing to do with deep time. The assumption is that physics is based on operational science. That is how radioactive decays rates are measured, right? That is how the nuclear bombs that ended WWII were designed, right? Scientists knew they would work because they understood the physics. Radiometric dating is based squarely on operational science, not on you doctrinal preferences. Deep time is not the assumption, it is the measured result.
So it is not a case of dueling opposite assumptions. It is reality vs delusion. It is basing on measurement as opposed to pulling numbers out of thin air.
Hi Mitchell,
I certainly do not claim to be better than anyone else, no matter what they believe.
I believe the Holy Bible to be reliable and true as it is God’s profound Word to us fallen people.
I certainly do not know a great many things, but one thing that I do know is that God is Loving, He is Kind, He is Holy, He is Righteous, He is Just, He is Gracious and He is Forgiving.
The mantra that it seems is repeated on this website over and over again that those people who believe in faith, a straightforward, uncomplicated, honest and respectful reading of the Holy Bible have caused many people to leave the faith or turn away from Christianity may seem real to you, BUT, I can assure you that nothing could be further from the reality or the Truth.
From what I understand, it is the ‘deep time’ evolution compromising belief that is causing masses of people to leave the Church in droves, because God is no longer needed they think, evolution explains how we got to be here, in a naturalistic way without God, make no mistake evolution makes atheists out of people, not through anyone’s actions per se, but rather the insistence and mass acceptance that ‘deep time’ and evolution are real, when it is ever so evident that it is not. Just about everything about evolution theory is false.
Natural selection is certainly real, and change within limits does occur all the time within populations, BUT, that is NOT evolution in the primordial soup to mankind ascension of complexity and corresponding increase in genome information sense.
That is merely, natural selection, that shows God’s provision to enable adaptation to varying climates and ecosystems and conditions, through His great Love, but it is NOT evolution.
Yes, I know, I’ve read the oft repeated deception that the opposite is true, but that is not my experience, at least here in Australia, and I doubt it would be any different in the US if that is where you are.
It is very clear that you have a very jaded view of people like me, and your statements do seem to put ‘deep time’ and evolution on a pedestal that according to you if ‘evolution’ didn’t exist then you would not “find Christianity believable”
You state in italics below:
Apologies Mitchell, but that doesn’t sound very much like you know Who God is, for no one could say such things if they knew how much our Loving Creator cares for each one of us. He loves you and me to an extent way beyond yours and my comprehension.
The harshness of evolution is a deception.
Honestly, evolution is not real, but God is certainly more real than you or I`
The harshness we observe in nature and ‘natural evil’ also, are all the result of all of us being born into the human race whose federal head is Adam the first man, who with Eve rebelled against God through their disobedience, that resulted in sin and death entering the world for the very first time.
As we are faithfully told in the Holy Bible,‘death’ is an intruder and is the last enemy that will be done away with at the end of the age in the new heaven and earth.
Nature ‘red in tooth and claw’ as Tennyson put it is an apt description of the struggle for survival we observe right now, but it wasn’t always this way, and it won’t always be this way.
You state in italics below:
But that is clearly a fabrication.
The Holy Bible informs us that God IS absolutely and perfectly loving, just, holy, righteous, and competent.
And I would never even contemplate questioning God’s good character, so it is a complete mystery to me as to why you have made the above accusation?
You state in italics below:
Yet, from where I stand, I myself once believed just like you do now, that evolution was the mechanism that God used over unimaginable eons of time, but after praying for wisdom on this matter, I now understand that the Holy Bible can absolutely be trusted to mean what it so plainly states.
The creation truly took place about six thousand years ago and God created everything that has been made in six ordinary days just as the Holy Bible ever so clearly says.
You may view that astonishingly short timeframe of only six thousand years as I once did as sounding completely ‘nuts’ because of the incessant indoctrination of deep time in our culture from every direction, be it mass media, education, academia or entertainment, the billions of years story is repeated over and over, and it is no wonder that most people today implicitly believe the lie of ‘deep time’, the millions of years signs on rock formations in National Parks etc. reinforce it over and over again, but please, please hear me, it is a deception, a mass deception yes, but a deception nonetheless!
Hi Caleb,
thanks for your considered response, its much appreciated!
Having researched the literature and pondered on this very subject for far too many decades, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the fundamental biological law that as far as I can determine, has never been broken, is absolutely valid, that being that “Life can only ever come from Life”.
That simple yet profound fact alone utterly demolishes a naturalistic abiogenesis, in ts tracks before it ever gets off the ground.
And the ‘Panspermia’ nonsense only serves to move the same problem off to somewhere else (unknown) in the cosmos, but it by no means provides any useful answers or explanations.
For me the Holy Bible provides the real answers that we all have, about how we and the whole universe came to exist in the first place.
Every effect has a cause and that cause is the Holy God of the Holy Bible.
I’d have to check papers for the exact ones, but dendrochronology and 14C dating are the most likely options. The former relies on regular seasonal patterns that don’t vary often; the latter on physical constants that if changed would make atoms fall apart or turn the earth into a ball of radioactive plasma.
God does perform miracles, but not for the purpose of deceiving people or altering the world in ways that have no theological point. God could have altered properties of the world in ways which would produce the observed effects within the parameters proposed by modern YEC and flood geopseudology advocates, but such miracles are neither recorded in the text, nor consistent with God’s attributes of faithfulness and truthfulness.
It is asserting that at least part of the reason for people to hold to an old earth is that they fear for their funding or prestige or reputation. That is possibly true for some people. To imply that it is generally true is a slander, as it implies that more of the individuals in question are more concerned with their livelihoods than with honesty than actually are. There certainly are scientists who are more concerned with money or fame than with honesty, but to imply that it is a standard motivation is false and is a slander.
And if the worldview demands honesty, it will not dismiss how measurements work. He’s the math for how a parent/daughter isotope ratio is converted to a date, for situations where the daughter isotope is actively excluded from the parent material (e.g., U-Pb dating of zircons); additional calibration steps are needed for places where the daughter isotope may have been present:
log2(Observed proportion of parent) * (calculated half life based on direct measurements of decay rate of a sample)
Measuring the decay rate generally is using something like energy release from a sample and converting that to decays/time. Decays/time can then be divided by the known number of atoms of the isotope in question in the sample to give the probability of decay of each atom in a given short amount of time, and then that can have its base 2 logarithm taken to give the half-life.
Here’s a paper describing how this was done for 209Bi: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3138
In other words, it’s just measurements and math, and completely independent of worldview, so long as the worldview demands honesty.
Not publishing results that are driven by contamination as accurate answers is what honesty demands–if I get an answer of 65,000,000 when I do a measurement using 30 independent techniques, and then get 30,000 using a technique that is known to be easily contaminated, which answer should I consider more likely? 14C dating is among the absolute easiest radiometric dating techniques for which to have problems with contamination, because carbon is everywhere–if the sample was in contact with the air, with the researcher, with anything alive after it died, etc., etc., it will be contaminated.
“It is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel [unbeliever] to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn … If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well, and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books [Scriptures], how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?”
–St. Augustine, “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”
And yet here you are on a website run by Christians who accept evolution.
You also have not described anything that is false about the theory of evolution or deep time.