If by “interpreted” you mean “analyzed with the assumption that the laws of nature are constant”, then sure, they were interpreted. But that interpretation was no different than a carpenter taking a measurement with his tape measure and calling out to an assistant who then cut a piece of lumber using his own tape measure: the assumption is that the tape measures are constant, that is that they do not change from one moment to another and that they both use the same units.
For a simple example: consider the case where the “tape measure” was crystals and the “inches” were the degree of deformation in crystals in the rock. Those “inches” tell time because by lab measurements we know how fast various crystals can deform without snapping, so if there is deformation x then we know that the fastest they could have deformed is x * K, where k is the rate at which that crystal can deform without snapping. So yes, the measurements are in units of time because that’s how rates work.
So either the measurements are accurate, or the scripture is wrong when it says that God is faithful.
So the only worldview involved is that God is faithful, the secular version being that the laws of nature don’t change.
Where in the scripture does it say it intends to teach science?
That scripture teaches science is the foundation of YEC. Where in the scriptures is that foundation located?
I’ve done such measurements in the lab for rocks, and watched the analysis of what turned out to be sun-hardened brick, so no, I’m not ignorant here. In all those cases it was physical analysis, since that was what the lab was capable of. Sadly the brick lacked any carbon, but it did contain volcanic ash from a known eruption, which dated it to not long after that eruption – and that eruption can be dated in a number of different ways that all agree . . . and since it happened 7k years ago then that brick was about 7k years old.
Rubbish. No assumptions were involved in any of the lab work I did except that the laws of nature are constant, which is what the Bible tells us – God is faithful, not whimsical; He is constant, not mercurial.
Where does the scripture say that it is “eyewitness historical accounts”?
You claim to be Bible-believing, so if you can’t find that claim in the Bible you have a problem: you aren’t using a biblical worldview.
Moses took the Egyptian creation story and edited it to give a theological message – that’s a fact, and the response to a fact shouldn’t be to deny it but to ask, “Why is that so?” In this case, the question is why Moses did that (the answer should be obvious given where Moses was educated).
What is the theological significance of the phrase “evening was, and morning was”?
That’s not in the text, either.
For someone who claims to be Bible-believing, you sure throw in a lot of things that aren’t in the Bible!
So does almost everyone here – and that is your problem: you are unable to accept that any view but yours can be right, so you can’t accept that others trust the Bible at least as much as you do if they disagree with you. And since you have to cling to your interpretation, you fail to see how often the disagreement arises because you are adding things to the text.
And the text is what I care about, because that’s what the Holy Spirit gave us. I tend to fly off the handle when someone mangles the text by adding to it because I was taught that the text is holy. I apologize for going overboard in zeal sometimes, but emotionally to me, adding to the text is little different than opening a copy of the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and urinating on it – indeed worse, because urinating on that book would only show that the person doing it is a fool, but adding to the text and pretending that’s what the text says is an actual attack on the work of the Holy Spirit.
Which being interpreted means, “YECers”. I read the text as you describe, though you can’t accept that.
Sorry, but I have seen it. I have watched with shattered heart as people raised YEC turned from the faith when they recognized that they had been lied to – and that is the very thing many of them said, that their pastors had lied – and then followed the YEC logic that if any detail in Genesis is wrong then the whole Bible is worthless. It happened by the hundreds where I went to university, over and over.
In our informal intelligent design club, it was evolution that primarily brought people to conclude there is a Designer, and most of those ended up as Christians. And only rarely did someone who had been raised YEC even mention evolution as a reason for abandoning the faith, what they said was they had been lied to by pastors and elders, and often that they were just doing what those pastors and elders said, concluding that the Bible was worthless because there were scientific errors in Genesis.
The tragedy is that they had been taught to worship an idol – science – as though it had the power to overturn scripture. No one had taught them that scientific accuracy didn’t matter because Christ still arose from the dead, and so they left the faith.
I never saw a single instance of that, though I saw the opposite – evolution making theists out of people.
Yes, because of what I have seen and heard – YEC treating the scriptures with cavalier disrespect, making the Bible look foolish, and driving people from Christ. Yet also because you continually reference sites that are known to lie about not just science but more importantly about the scriptures.
Hi Timothy,
Absolutely not, no, I am not and would never suggest that God would ever perform any deception. You appear to miss the point. I will try to convey it to you in a manner that allows you to understand within your present worldview.
I was simply trying to get you to contemplate the extraordinary and utterly inexplicable supernatural power that God exhibits when He creates matter completely out of nothing, or when He raises a person from the dead, or commands the wind and the seas to be still, these are not explicable by anything we understand in science. They are acts of God, they are metaphysical events, that are not within the normal day to day physical laws that God has set up for our benefit.
As for the dating of rocks and fossils that you claim confirm ‘deep time’, well there is clearly something very wrong with that paradigm, because dinosaur bones contain C14 as do diamonds that your belief in radiometric dating claims are tens to hundreds of millions of years old.
But as the half life of C14 is only 5,730 years, it is abundantly obvious to me that the paradigm is not valid.
Because if it was valid, then no detectable C14 would be present at all, but it is present, thus something is severely amiss.
And before you start with the usual cry of contamination, no, that just won’t do, C14 has been found in numerous samples at analytical labs and normal procedures rigorously followed to prevent contamination, therefore, unfortunately the very many denials of the presence of C14 in dinosaur bones and diamonds are based upon nothing except maintaining the status quo in alignment with your worldview.
Once again, I repeat:
But Timothy, all that I said was “I wonder how many” and I do wonder how many!
You can accuse me of slander all you want, but I would not and have not slandered anyone, I myself worked in science too, for many years, and as I’m sure you would know of, I also know of spurious claims that don’t pass the pub test let alone any degree of scientific rigour.
I’m not implying that all scientists are dishonest, far from it, most scientist colleagues that I know are dedicated hard working people doing their job diligently and to the best of their ability.
The absolute reality is that the ‘deep time’, evolution paradigm and establishment DOES have a stranglehold on grant funding schemes and scientific paper publications in mainstream science journals.
Did you watch the free movie titled:
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (full movie) (Ben Stein)
Because if you did, you would have a much better understanding of the reality.
Of course if your worldview is lock step with the ruling paradigm, then I expect you would be fairly oblivious of this stranglehold, as it only raises it’s ugly head when anyone questions the validity of the paradigm. It does not tolerate dissent!
You only have to look at the fervour on this very website that manifests when anyone questions the sacred cows of ‘deep time’ and evolution.
Yet, I have always believed that science is the pursuit of understanding the Truth about how the creation operates, no matter where those investigations may lead. That used to be the case fifty years ago, but sadly that is no longer the way it is.
Well actually Timothy you should know that is not the case at all.
1.) Please tell me how you KNOW what the percentage of the parent and daughter isotopes at the time the rock or fossils was formed or died respectively?
2.) Please tell me how you KNOW what the percentage of the parent and daughter isotopes have leached into the sample over assumed thousands or millions or billions of years?
3.) Please tell me how you KNOW what the percentage of the parent and daughter isotopes have leached out of the sample over assumed thousands or millions or billions of years?
if you don’t assume a worldview and make assumptions for those parameters listed above?
Well I would have thought that the hardest natural substance known to man would be a safe bet if anything ever was to be free of contamination. So if you trust any C14 dates you ave analysed, Why do you not accept that C14 is in diamonds?
The answer is simple, because having C14 in diamonds contradicts your worldview, therefore you cry contamination, despite the fact that meticulous procedures are followed to prevent contamination, just as you yourself would know. The worldview to which you subscribe, states that the diamonds were formed deep in the Earth’s crust around 300 million years ago, yet they actually do contain C14, therefore, common sense dictates they are NOT 300 million years old.
I would not expect this clueless a statement from somebody who has done spectroscopy. You should be in a position to know that analysis always has noise, and therefore you cannot go to zero. Despite claims, intrinsic C14 has never been found in coal, dinosaur fossils, or diamonds.
You go on about deep time being a lie from the pit, but live in a glass house. YEC gets it exactly backwards when it comes to carbon dating - they take signal for noise, and noise for signal.
By just physical analysis rocks declare that the various upthrust mountain ranges on the planet are at the least hundreds of thousands of years old – no radioactive analysis needed.
You’re talking about two different things at once and confusing them.
If you’re going to talk about science, at least learn the subject you’re talking about.
Dear Ron,
whatever you would expect is utterly irrelevant!
All I see here from you is yet more unwarranted insults, obfuscation and denial, that unfortunately is to be expected these days, your reply is predictable and fairly typical of the nonsense responses on this site.
It is disappointing that people who call themselves Christians appear so eager to attack those who don’t agree with their worldview.
I’m not talking about background noise, I am talking about rigorously performed analysis that clearly affirms the reality that C14 exists in both dinosaur bones and diamonds.
Although my work was using Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometers, the rigorous methodology for preparing samples to be analysed remains the same in principle if not exactly the same due to considerable variance in the analytical methodologies analysis employed with other instruments including radiometric dating and Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS).
But, when a sample such as a bone is analysed for say C14, the mathematics for precisely how the parent and daughter isotope volume or mass ratio are converted into a date is dependent upon assumptions regarding what those ratios actually were at the time the dinosaur lived, and also assumes what may have leached in and what may have leached out of the sample over hundreds of millions of years sometimes, which obviously of course is entirely utterly unknowable!
Thus it is no surprise that those assumptions again conform completely with the ‘deep time’ worldview. When a sample that returns a ratio that ends up confirming the Biblical timeframe rather than the expected ‘deep time’ age then that sample is quickly discarded, it is labelled as contaminated or with excessive background noise or just plain unreliable.
So usually, further analysis is performed until results are obtained that don’t rock the boat of the prime paradigm of ‘deep time.! And that is what gets published!
Well, that is a very convenient way of silencing all other endeavours of scientific investigation that are working diligently to get to the Truth, and doesn’t that sound a just a little bit like confirmation bias operating within a pattern of circular reasoning to maintain the dominance of the prime paradigm of ‘deep time’?
We all know that anybody working in science circles who speaks up an publishes honest, genuine research findings about ’Intelligent Design’ is labelled any one of the names or terms that are at base conveying a derogatory undertone, (YEC, Creationist, nutcase etc to name a few), that immediately signals to the reigning ‘science’ establishment, you know, the paradigm enforcers, that this person is an enemy and must be silenced, and perhaps even labelled a fanatic or worse… loss of tenure and rescinding of funding advanced…
This still happens even though recent research and incredible discoveries in microbiology and genetics are absolutely chock a block full of amazingly designed structures, processes and biological machines that make man’s technology look pitifully inadequate, ‘Oh’, doesn’t that sound like ‘Intelligent Design’?
But no, of course you can’t see the obvious implications here, because the prime paradigm controls the very way that you interpret everything.
Although I doubt that you would see it that way, I guess your apparent adherence to the prime paradigm of ‘deep time’ is probably why you complain about anyone, in this case me, who doesn’t agree with your worldview.
Take the ATP Synthase Motors as a perfect example of Intelligent Design, that is as far as we can tell 100% efficient. Such a thing is unknown, it defies all we know about physics, yet there it is, as far as we can tell, it is as close to100% if not 100% as any electric motor ever has been. Then please consider for a moment the microscopically miniature size of these ATP Synthase Motors.
Everything about these biological nano machines displays design and advanced technology at a very high level that is far, far superior to anything that mankind has ever invented!
I understand that C14 has been found in diamonds - but it’s generated by radiation from uranium ore similarly to how C14 is generated in the atmosphere by solar radiation. The level of C14 in diamonds is in equilibrium, much as it is in equilibrium in the atmosphere, but at a considerably lower level. So carbon dating diamonds from deposits near radioactive minerals will typically produce a date circa 50kya.
This doesn’t present a problem for geology, because we know the source of the C14.
It does present a problem for YECs, because nothing should date that old.
It is not reality unless you can provide an example. It should be easy to provide an example, if there are unmineralised dinosaur boned found all over the Earth.
Hi Roy,
thanks for your comment, it’s appreciated!
Actually, there is no problem for those of us that believe the Holy Bible to be truthful about the history of the worlds origin at the command of God.
A sample purporting to be from the Flood era would not be expected to give a ‘radiocarbon age’ of about 5,000 years, but rather 20,000–50,000 years.
Indeed, that is consistently what one obtains from specimens of oil, gas and fossil wood from layers allegedly ‘millions of years’ old.
The reason is: radiocarbon dating assumes that the current 14C/12C ratio of about 1 in a trillion (after adjusting for the Industrial Revolution) was the starting ratio for the objects dated.
But this ratio would have been much smaller before the Flood, which removed virtually all living carbon from the biosphere through burial.
Because pre-and para-Flood objects would have started with a much lower initial 14C/12C ratio, the measured amount today would also be smaller, and be (mis-)interpreted as much older.
If you wish to read more about this, you could start at:
If that was true, then we wouldn’t expect to see any radiocarbon dates between 4500ya and 20000ya. But there are lots of items that date to that period. So it’s not true.
No, it isn’t. The result of carbon dating old materials is usually that there is insufficient carbon-14 to produce a meaningful result.
You have been lied to, and you are repeating those lies here.
Why would it have been smaller? Removing all the living carbon from the biosphere would have no effect on the ratio of C12/C14 in the atmosphere.
Again, why would they have started with a lower ratio?
The labs themselves will say that it’s contamination. There is no possible means to completely eliminate contamination, especially for something as ubiquitous as carbon.
Given that I can find multiple instances on this forum, you have:
Well, in the specific cases that I was referencing, it’s relatively easy–the chemical structure of the mineral crystals being analyzed actively excludes the daughter isotope, so we can confidently conclude that it was almost zero; that only requires lab measurements and no changes to fundamental properties.
Given that lots of different independent measurements can be taken, and they agree with each other well in most cases, this can be calibrated for. Or, in some cases, it’s relatively easy to exclude these possibilities given the mineral properties.
Given that both air and the equipment used for the analysis contain or have been in contact with more modern sources of carbon, no, there is no way to completely eliminate contamination. The dates that I have seen obtained for diamonds are well beyond the limits of when the method works well, and in any case are completely incompatible with an age of 6,000 years. There is also the issue of instruments not having perfect precision.
So says the person rejecting radiometric dating because it conflicts with his religious beliefs. You seem to have a serious case of projection.
Apparently, you are unaware of how humans use evolutionary mechanisms to design things. Engineers often use evolutionary algorithms to produce designs that often outperform top down human designs. Have you heard of machine learning? That is often based on evolutionary algorithms.
Yes, underground radioactive activity is a constant factor in sensitive underground experiments such as muon detection, and spallation would form C14 in diamonds. This paper gives nuclear pathways and examples of in ground C14 formation. N-SITU COSMOGENIC 14C: PRODUCTION AND EXAMPLES OF ITS UNIQUE APPLICATIONS IN STUDIES OF TERRESTRIAL AND EXTRATERRESTRIAL PROCESSES. However, C14 can only be formed from impurities in diamonds, and given a that would amount to trace amounts in trace amounts. While I have seen theoretical projections, I have not seen any paper that has claimed a direct detection of C14 in diamond (I would be very interested in being informed if there is one), given that the amount would likely be swamped by conventional threshholds of noise.
In theory, the carbon the diamond was formed from would, if near a source of radiation, retain some quantity of the C14 it originally included, as the rate of decay of C14 to N14 would eventually match the formation of C14 from that N14, if the N14 was unable to escape.
In practice, the ratio would be much lower than that arising from atmospheric C14/N14, but still non-zero. The N14 wouldn’t be able to easily escape from the diamond lattice; whether it could escape from whatever material the diamond was formed from would depend on what that material was, and how and how quickly it was buried. I don’t really know how likely this is.
It is the actual AMS lab workers, knowing what they are talking about as opposed to apologists, who perform those meticulous procedures, that are the ones stating that C14 in diamonds is contamination. Those procedures are followed to obtain useful results within an accepted date range. That is part of the why the limits are the limits. Contamination can only be mitigated, not eliminated.
AMS appartatus are tested with various configurations, such as completely empty sample holders, and with inert samples such as graphite or diamond, to assess the impact of different potential baseline sources of contamination on the sensitive electronics involved. You will never get to zero. That is not a problem for actual measurement of appropriate age ranges, because there you are getting much higher and definite signals, given logarithmic decay rates.
We consider one misconception of those who currently reject the general validity of radiocarbon (14 C) age determinations older than, at most, 10,000 BP. There is an allegation that the presence of 14C reported by accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) laboratories in their measurements of 14C infinite age (>100,000 years) organics used to define background levels, support their point of view.
and over the course of the paper
We have presented a list of 16 potential sources that could contribute to producing a back-
ground signal that would indicate or mimic the presence of a 14 C ion in the detector circuitry of an AMS system.
the radiocarbon detected in natural, unprocessed diamond measurements seems to be nothing more than instrument background
and in case there is any doubt as to his qualifications…
Dr. Bertsche received a PhD in Physics from the University of California, Berkeley in 1989 under the direction of Prof. Richard A. Muller, the inventor of radiocarbon AMS. Dr. Bertsche’s thesis involved the design and testing of a small cyclotron for radiocarbon AMS. He subsequently received a postdoctoral appointment in the AMS laboratory of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, where he was involved with accelerator design and operation and also with sample preparation and analysis. In 2005, he received an MA in Exegetical Theology from Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon. He is the author of 25 publications and 13 patents, primarily dealing with particle accelerator and electron microscope design.
No, it doesn’t – it sounds like humans are fallen creatures who can’t possibly match what the Creator has done. It says absolutely nothing about how He did it.
Your theology is off-center like a car with bad steering, one tire too large, and another tire 1/5 full of Jello.
Which says absolutely nothing about whether it evolved.
You have turned evolution into an idol – a reverse idol, something you have to sacrifice to in order to keep it away, something that is capable of endangering the Word of God!
That’s a bit of sophomoric science fiction: burying all the biomass in the world wouldn’t change the ratio of C14 to C12 at all.
B, start paying attention to the message of the scriptures and get off this science as truth kick.
It is not I, that’s making spurious assumptions here, is it?
Clearly, the Bible isn’t wrong. What is wrong is the belief that radiometric dating dating is a reliable, accurate methodology to determine ages of samples from the distant past. Instruments are calibrated according to a very precise procedure, and in most cases those instruments provide very accurate measurements of what they are measuring, but those measurements are not ages, they do not provide a result in units of time.
The error enters the procedure when the accurate measurements are converted into a date or date range in the distant past. That is the unscientific component of the whole procedure. Making assumptions that the initial starting concentrations of parent and daughter isotopes can be reliably based upon mineral analysis is all honesty a clear situation where that analysis does not adequately demonstrate the assumptions made from them, because to much needed information is missing.
More specifically, the starting and through the mid-term to the present, the ratios of parent and daughter isotopes remains objectively unknowable.
That is an objective fact.
Simply because those ratios are in the sample in the distant past, and we can’t perform analysis in the distant past, we can only perform analysis in the present!
Sure best guesses can be made and are made, but ultimately all methodologies are fraught with potential error, and substantial error at that, simply because when attempting to determine the age of an artefact or a rock or a fossil, the analysis being performed in the present simply does not have all the necessary information knowledge required to scientifically make an accurate conclusion of a date, it will always be based upon assumptions that cannot be directly confirmed, they can only be calculated based upon assumptions that are themselves predicated upon the worldview of the researcher.
I say that simply because it is an objective fact!
Do you really believe conclusions made to determine an age or date range through< lab analysis performed on ancient Archaeological artefacts have the same degree of certainty as lab analysis of say a sample to determine what elements it contains now in the present day?
Yet more comments from the gutter denigrating honest Christian brothers and sisters working diligently to further the kingdom of the Lord Jesus amongst men.
Yes, Ron you are correct in as much as the enemy has infiltrated the Church with paedophiles and other obscene evils that have not placed some large Christian Churches and organisations in a favourable light in the minds of the unsaved masses. But I suspect the numbers of those people who bring the Church into disrepute are a minority and not representative of the vast body of believers worldwide.
But as for science, there is no problem whatsoever with real operational science, however, when forensic science is used to make claims of dates that clearly cannot and do not have all the required information, then the results need to be taken with a grain of salt. That is, the results of such analysis for say the age of a fossil is not objective science with the same degree of certainty as the operational science that makes our phones work, or satellites, or medical advances; operational science should never be confused or conflated with forensic research with regard to the confidence or accuracy placed upon findings regarding age dates for samples.
And where those ‘deep time’ dates that have been determined by forensic science unequivocally contradict the Holy Bible, it’s a no brainer for me at least, to know Who to believe.