It’s subjective.
St. Raymond,
You stated: “God’s instruction was not “Don’t have sex with the Devil.”
Are you aware that Jesus spoke in parables? Matthew 13:10-16 says:
“Then the disciples came, and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables? And he answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, do not see: and hearing, they hear not, neither understand. So in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which prophecy saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive. For this people’s heart is waxed fat, and their ears are dull of hearing, and with their eyes they have winked, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their hearts, and should return, that I might heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”
Please go back to the portion in this thread where I discuss my evidence-based theory on how not everyone is meant to understand the Bible.
You then said: “You don’t get to change the plain meaning of a text by importing some perceived idea from other texts.” For the record, parables are not plain. So, can you please give me an example of my, as you say, “importing some perceived idea from other texts?” Also, the Bible has recurring themes and repetition throughout, Ecclesiastes 1:9, “What has been will be again, and what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." So, it’s not your place to tell me that I must stick to the same chapter in the Bible to prove a point when the same theme is mentioned and repeated in various correlated chapters. Rightly dividing the word is important; 2 Timothy 2:15, “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” What does the word divide mean? If you want to understand how a flashlight works, it is worth taking all of the components apart to understand how each mechanism works, and then upon re-assembly, one can gain a better understanding of the flashlight as a whole.
Genesis 2:16, “And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Now, Genesis 26 says, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Vs 31 continues to read, “And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.”
So, upon disobeying God and eating the fruit from the knowledge of the tree of good and evil (as referenced in Genesis 2:16), man was no longer “good.” Not only that, but man also lost dominion. When God cursed Adam as a byproduct of original sin, God said in Genesis 3:17; “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.”
The knowledge of good and evil is the byproduct of that act/sin. The “fruit” of participation in regard to that “tree” is the reward for disobedience (i.e. contamination). Initially, man’s nature was predisposed to be good with the element of free will. Despite free will, sin holds consequences.
In the beginning, man was “good.” Through original sin, man took on a sin nature. Since original sin, man is born into a state of sinfulness. Notice how when you eat something, it enters into your body? Well, think of sin like a computer virus that corrupted the software of human design. We know the antidote is Jesus and obedience to His word.
So like I said, I suspect the fruit is sex. I suspect that superfecundation (or something like it) may be a factor. I don’t know for sure, just a postulation. I am open to any contradicting evidence-based postulation if you have any to provide and feel free to refer to whatever chapter of the Bible you like.
Amina
Does anyone have any studies that were peer reviewed that went through a well known scientific journal that was critical of it and determined that the people actually experienced some kind of supernatural experience outside of their body or saw the afterlife? Because I see thousands of stories online from around the world and hundreds of different “visions”. Including ones of aliens from other dimensions and so on.
Has there been any studies where scientists waited at emergency rooms or operation rooms where someone died and held up like a painting or something to see if the person correctly seen it? I’m just not seeing anything and I’ve looked for over ten years. 6 of them hoping something was there to support my belief that it was real. But it just was not there.
Once someone presents something like what I requested then I can look at it. Otherwise, it’s just repeating everything again and again with some of y’all acting like I’m overly biased when yall are accepting something because you read stories about it.
Genesis 1-3 has no parables. You don’t get to use one kind of literature’s characteristics and force them onto another kind of literature.
Right above – you imported the idea of a parable into a text where there are no parables.
What theme? Where is the theme in the Bible that Adam’s sin was sexual? There is none! You’re inventing a theme that doesn’t exist and claiming it confirms your imaginings.
Yes, and it begins by treating the text as what it is, not twisting it to fit some preconceived notion.
Exactly – nothing sexual there at all. Paul talks about this story and he says nothing about sex, which given how often he did mention sex fairly solidly confirms that there is no sex in that passage.
But that is not the fruit concerning which they were given a prohibition. This is the fallacy of equivocation, switching the meaning of a term within an argument.
Sex does not grow on a tree.
3 Likes
Agreed. There is nothing in the text to suggest any such thing – quite the opposite.
Not true.
There is plenty in the story to suggest something sexual.
- Adam and Eve hid their sexual parts in shame.
- The consequences included effects on giving birth.
- There is the rather colloquial meanings of the word “know.”
- The things which snake represented in religion and myth.
So regardless of whether this story really had anything to do with sex, it simply isn’t true that there is nothing in the story to suggest this.
How about the “knowledge of good and evil?” Frankly I think there is an alteration of the meaning of words involved here because it makes no sense whatsoever for God to forbid this. I think it was about “authority regarding good and evil” and the so problem wasn’t acquiring knowledge about good and evil which much of the Bible calls wisdom, but rather claiming authority over good and evil. And… there is a rather solid connection between claiming this authority and sexuality for one very simple reason – parenthood. A parent automatically has a position of authority over good and evil in raising their children.
This does not agree with basic biology. Trees certainly do have sexual reproduction and sex for trees starts with flowers and produces fruit. Both of these grow on trees.
we are talking two types of truth. I am thinking about specific doctrinal claims, like
- the earth is x days old
- Jesus body and blood is present in the Eucharist
- The pre rapture of the church ect.
- baptismal regeneration
The central truth of reality is a person (JC) not a fact. but radiating out from that person the facts gain truth in thier focus on the center
you may be thinking of subjective personal experiences that strengthen faith.
I would agree with the multifaceted way God works with people. Jesus never healed the same way twice. It is really great to be loved by a God who knows each of our uniqueness. He allows us to express ourselves but he also disciplines us as well when we go too far.
I read the thread today further you were arguing about allegorical meanings in Genesis. I agree with you there are deep parables in Gen… Now here is a perfect example of my concentric ring theory. Adam sleeps and eve is taken from his side. Now the most truth found here is what it could be saying about the center Jesus…
1 adam is Jesus
2)adam asleep/ jesus dies
3) Adam side is open/ wounded/ jesus side was wounded by roman spear
4)A bride was made from his side/
5) The church/ bride of Christ was made by the death of christ.
6) adam wakes up/ jesus is resurrected
7) they become one flesh/ Jesus returns and we party forever
Jesus does this himself in regards to Jonah, and the bronze serpent on the pole, true tempal ect. What do you think about this.
I did not “import the idea of parables into Genesis.” Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, do you not think He shares similar traits with the Father, since He is an extension of the Father in the flesh. Jesus spoke in parables, the Father uses symbolism. Not everyone can handle certain levels of Truth, and so there are levels of truth and levels to understanding.
Theme: The subject of a talk, a piece of writing, a topic.
There are recurring themes throughout the Bible and repetition is a component. I tend to look at the symbolic words that are used throughout the Bible, such as “fruit” and cross reference those words with other uses of those words and consider all of the contexts in which they were used to deduce the potential intended meaning. There is nothing wrong with that and the process is objective.
I think that the Bible has varying levels of technically true truths for the purpose of being palatable across the masses. If the Truth was served in a dose too high to a narrow-minded individual, they may end up running away from the faith as a result. The goal is to save as many souls as possible. If someone can technically accept the Truth (even in diluted form), then they stand a chance at inheriting the Kingdom. So, all in all, I think that God has humanity’s best interests at heart and connects with us to the level in which we are capable of receiving Him.
You said: “But that is not the fruit concerning which they were given a prohibition.”
Yes, it is. The fruit was “ingested” and the reward for disobedience was that fruit itself. They chose, and received the reward of that choice - The “fruit.” If you swallow a spider and the spider’s venom poisons you from the inside, your reward for eating the spider is the spider, which is a byproduct of the spider itself. So, there is no, “fallacy of equivocation, switching the meaning of a term within an argument.” Adam and Eve reacted to the ingested fruit before ever even being cursed by God. User above Mitchellmckain (in this thread) raised some points worth contemplating.
Can you consider the possibility that your ability to connect to God may be greater than your mind can currently fathom? I really think that people who are struggle with understanding/perceiving the Bible in full dose lack one key trait, creativity. I think it takes the heart/mind of an artist, etc. to understand what the ultimate creator had in mind.
A while ago, I came across this album called Merge of Equals. Below is a song and the corresponding lyrics. This song perfectly relates to the bigger point that I am about to make. This is one of my fave albums (all the songs on it are so good) and I truly hope you like it 
I see your beauty
All across the sky
A sea of stars
Hang above my head
Your my creator
Your my delight
Imagine this
My destiny
You give me joy
You give me peace
You make Me happy
You make me smile
You are the reason
That I am free
I feel so good now
Creativity
Creativity
Creativity
In me you breathe life
In you I see
Reflections of beauty
Show me who you are
Can you imagine?
Dismiss unbelief
You are my guiding light
This mystery
Now, I will tell a true story that may possibly “piss you off” (for lack of a better term), Lol. What I am about to say relates back to my larger point, so please bear with me.
A while back, I wrote this document called, “Keys to The Kingdom.” This document discusses God, etc.
I was holding this document in my hands on a hot warm summer night when driving down the streets of the Miami area. It was a Saturday night and I was led (without any planning) to drive into the parking lot of this huge casino. The music reverberating from the outside was loud, the lights were bright, and many of the people were drunk. The parking lot had multiple levels and traffic to reach the top was quite slow. I lowered my window and made eye contact with a young man who was clearly ready to party. I smiled and told him that he is loved by God, and reached out to hand him a copy of the document. He reached forward to take it, but the girl he was with grabbed his elbow and dragged him away. I saw another girl who was clearly dating another girl. They were passing close by and I felt led to tell her, “I hope you feel every bit of the love that God has intended for you” while reaching out to hand her the document and a flower from the bouquet I had purchased earlier that day. Her eyes lit up as she reached out to take the document, her friend tried to drag her away, but she took the document with a “thank you” on her lips as she was literally pulled into the distance. I saw a family, mother, teenage daughter, child son younger than teenage age), and husband. I tried to give the woman the document, but she did not speak English. The daughter did, and she took the document. I told her to explain/translate it to her mother later. I pulled up into a parking space and turned off my car. I then decided, “Nah, I’m outta here.” I tried to start my car… the engine sounded like a bad stutter. Again, stutter, stutter, stutter. Again and agian and again… I knew that this would be a perfect opportunity to utilize my spiritual authority *in congruence with the will of God. I sincerely hoped that it was not in His will in that moment for me to be suck there. I rolled the windows all the way up, threw my head back, and authoritatively prayed aloud in tongues. With a heart full of faith, and praises on my lips, I turned the key with faithful hope. The car started. Since that day, I had never experienced such an issue ever again (and it was a really nice Mercedes, not an old beater or anything like that). I never had to take it to the repair shop. Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
So, God created man with His “paintbrush.” Past a certain level, through faith, the strokes of the paintbrush cause the words in the Bible to jump out onto the pages of current reality in a way that causes one to… do a *quantum dance of sorts. The paintbrush twirls, I twirl. The paintbrush rises up, I jump. I don’t see God as far away, but rather very near. Creativity is the essence of life force translated into… the scene before your very eyes right now. I hope that what you are looking at is beautiful.
I hope you have a good night.
Amina
Neither does cognisance.
Richard
I am very sorry if my message seemed like I would classify you as an autist. Although I think there is nothing bad in being an autist, the example of an autist was just an example showing that there are various reasons why people find it difficult to participate in church communities.
As another example, I have discussed with people who think that all organized churches having church buildings and belonging to some denomination or other ‘subcategory’ are wrong - they tell they belong to the universal church of Christ that is free from such divisions. Again, this example does not hint that you belong among such people, it just shows that there are diverse reasons to not belong or visit a local church community.
The reason why I think we should all belong to a local church community (congregation) are theological, rising from the teachings of biblical scriptures. I do not list all these reasons in this comment because that would lengthen the comment much and are outside the topic of this thread.
There are various types of communities and assemblages but these are for different purposes. A congregation (church community) is theologically something very different from ‘secular’ communities or other type of assemblages.
3 Likes
I think it’s obvious that God as original intend did not want A&E (with their God given free will) to know and experience evil, hence God called the tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A&E decided otherwise, they insisted to know and God gave them what they wanted. And so we are here, learning about good and evil. There is nothing more to the story IMO.
We were created to live in the presence of God forever, we will eventually, but first we need to learn about good and evil in a blip of time of eternity as a learned creation that will remember the lesson to obey God in eternal life.
Sex has nothing to do with it.
1 Like
I hear what you are saying, Kai. I will finalize this particular point in a way that relates to the main topic.
In order to properly convey this point, I will need you to try on my perspective for a few moments. This will require me to give a couple of examples from my life.
Back when I was working at a level II trauma hospital, I encountered some unwanted drama. I was super nice to everyone. I was one of the therapists who when a patient refused to work with anyone, my peers would call me to make a last attempt, and the session in turn would occur. I remember one woman who had been a prior admit and was back again post-second above-the-knee amputation. How in the world do you convince someone to do therapy (that requires physical activity) right after such a traumatic experience? Well, I spoke to her from the heart and that was what she needed. My peers seemed to admire me, at first. Unfortunately during a monthly staff meeting, I got an award from my boss in front of everyone due to an email she had received from a woman I encountered outside of work. One day after work while still in my scrubs, I decided to make a pit stop at the grocery store. It was raining hard and I proceeded in with my umbrella. There was a woman who was proceeding out with her cart and no umbrella. I quickly put my umbrella over her and followed her to her car, held the umbrella over her as she unloaded her groceries into the trunk, and walked her over to the driver’s seat. I ended up getting soaking wet. I had no idea she was an employee at the same company. She was so touched, and I guess she read the name on my badge. She sent an email to my boss about the experience with some very special words. So, on the day of that staff meeting, my boss read the letter aloud and presented me with an award. I think this was the last straw for some of my peers. They were glaring at me pretty hard. I figured, maybe they had something else going on to cause such an expression. Then, a large group of them came up to me right after the meeting and accusatorially stated, “I hope you realize that any of us would have done the same thing!” I appeased them to the best of my ability. Then, after that, the heated atmosphere ramped up despite my very best efforts. Sometimes, on the way into the building each morning, we would see each other in the parking lot and walk in together. On one particular day, a (what most women would consider handsome) doctor almost broke his neck looking at me. I didn’t give him the time of day. That didn’t stop those girls from refusing to walk next to me in the parking lot ever again - unfortunately, many of them witnessed the event. Things got pretty bad. I figured to myself, “Let me break the ice with some candy!” So, during my lunch break I said, “Hey guys, I am heading to the store real quick, anyone want anything, like candy?” Everyone, and I mean every single last one of them told me what candy bar to buy for them. I did so happily. They ate it, and then not only kept being mean to me but also spread false rumors about me with those same candy-eating mouths (lol). My hair is spiral curly, like Shirley Temple curls. Well, it gets longer when I straighten it. They used that as an opportunity to say that my hair was fake, lol. I ended up quitting that job. Even after I left, the website analytics on the website I had showed traffic from that hospital - a very very creepy amount of traffic. Familiarity can certainly breed contempt.
Here is a scholarly article that describes much of what I experienced and I think this is a study (NIH) that everyone should read:
Do human females use indirect aggression as an intrasexual competition strategy?
My point is, I was certainly not expecting to encounter those same behaviors (in one way or another) at all of the churches I tried. I tried multiple. I figured it would be a safe space… and people would have a more holy predisposition. Not in my experience. I tried to use my talents (Matthew 24:14-30, The Parable of the Talents) to contribute things like my cooking. I am really into cooking and just for fun, I was fortunate enough to work as a culinary instructor at Sur La Table for a period of time. I also do food photography, not professionally or anything, but just as a side hobby. Well, I volunteered my cooking portfolio to one of the ladies at church (as per her request) and volunteered to make some dishes for the next meeting. This caused some outrage, especially from the women who had a history of cooking for events. Even the grandmas were mad at me. The level of palpable contempt was ridiculous. I even “Tried dimming my light”; Matthew 5:16. Putting my hair back in a tight bun, even slouching a little to try and appease others - it didn’t work. Ultimately, I just stopped going. I really and truly don’t do drama. I understand that some things are worthy of persevering through, but not this.
I believe that everyone has certain purposes as determined by God, and my purposes are just a little different. Romans 8:28; “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” And so, I have reason to believe that I am right where I am intended to be, for now.
Also, I am a crier in church, lol. Especially if it’s a good sermon. And so, I don’t like to cry in front of others under bright lighting. Praise is an intimate act for me, and I can be shy, so lifting my hands up in the air and singing in a *brightly lit room is also a little bit uncomfortable. Am I generally this way? No. I have danced many a dance at house music events. But, praise is different. On the few occasions where I just stood there and pleasantly smiled, the next sermon involved statements about how “Praise is important to get involved in to show God your love.” Lol. Also, I learn a lot studying on my own and I prayed and asked God to help me learn more. 2 Timothy 3:16-17; “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
This is just my perspective. I am sure there are more perspectives.
This is also why I am also very much anti-gossip. I defined witchcraft before as the manipulation of energy outside of God’s will, etc. This can be something as simple as gossip or as extreme as a blood ritual. Breath can be measured and every action counts and is an expenditure of energy for either 1 of 2 Kingdoms (The Kingdom of Light vs The kingdom of Darkness) - The correlation is quantum.
Man is intended to be a vessel for God, a useful instrument, and the most useful instruments actively avoid the uncleanly nature of sin in an act of rebellion against this tainted sin-riddled world as an expression of passion for God; 2 Timothy 2:21:
“Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.”
Of course, I do not negatively judge anyone who attends church and enjoy the Paul LeBoutillier verse-by-verse recorded Cavalry teachings.
©
Amina
About this -
Gen 3:7 - Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
First time their conscience spoke ?
They lost their state of innocence and wanted to cover it ?
You most certainly did – you claimed that the opening of Genesis qualifies as parable. But it isn’t parable.
Nor does it employ symbolism. Claiming symbolism where there is none is an avenue where you can make scripture mean whatever you want. If you think there is symbolism in the first Creation account, demonstrate why the genres used there should or even can be taken symbolically.
When you start anywhere but the text itself in its context the result will be skewed. Unless a given text provides evidence that things should be taken symbolically, taking them that way is mangling the text. Objectivity for a text starts with that text, not from all over a library. Seeking how a specific writer uses a specific term may be objective, but looking at other writers’ usage leads to subjectivity because you end up picking a meaning that you like rather than what is intended; and the usage of a term is determined by the type of literature it is in, not by its use in other literary types. Neither of the genres employed in the opening Creation account uses language symbolically, so putting a symbolic meaning violates the text – indeed it violates all the principles of understanding any literature; it’s the same approach that was used to argue that Puff the Magic Dragon is a song about drugs.
No, they were given a prohibition about an actual fruit, a ripe seed body on a tree.
Fallacy of equivocation. You don’t eat the result of eating fruit; that is nonsense.
A spider is not fruit that grows on and from a tree.
Except you just did it again, two points above here.
Absolutely. But that is not a license to treat the text as something other than the kind of literature it is. Scripture is more than human literature, but it is never less than that, and the meaning is bound by the literary type. You don’t reach a ceiling by kicking over a ladder, and you don’t reach a higher understanding of something by kicking over its literary type.
1 Like
St. Raymond,
Please go back and read what I wrote to assist with your potential understanding to avoid repetition. It is not my role to convince you of anything. Now:
I stand by the notion that symbolism is a component of the Bible, in the form of both parables and specific word use. I stand by the fact that the word fruit in the Bible has been demonstrably used in similar symbolic ways. If there is a consistent trend among correlated words and symbolism, it is one’s duty to at least consider it as a potential (in my opinion). Again, one must hypothesize as a building block in terms of scientific process, gather data, and pinpoint a trend to deduce correlative data.
When you state, “When you start anywhere but the text itself in its context, the results will be skewed.” Here’s the thing, I did start my deductive, etc. process within the text itself. Can you provide an example of why you made such an assumption? Feel free to copy and paste me word for word, in context.
You state: “Objectivity for a text starts with that text, not from all over a library.” The last time I was at a library, I was a very young child. Do you mean library of information? So… please pinpoint my statement that led to this response from you. Again, feel free to copy and paste me word for word.
Again, what did I write (copy and past me word for word) to lead you to deduce that, as you said, “Seeking how a specific writer uses a specific term may be objective, but looking at other writers’ usage leads to subjectivity because you end up picking a meaning that you like rather than what is intended; and the usage of a term is determined by the type of literature it is in, not by its use in other literary types.” Other literary types such as? Clarify.
You stated, “Neither of the genres employed in the opening Creation account uses language symbolically, so putting a symbolic meaning violates the text – indeed it violates all the principles of understanding any literature; it’s the same approach that was used to argue that Puff the Magic Dragon is a song about drugs.” So, how would you equivocate the writings of Puff the Magic Dragon to the Bible? Can you provide me with solid examples of why all information from the Bible (other than potentially clearly stated parables) are to be taken at face value and warrant no deeper thought or symbolic potential? I am really curious.
Regarding the fruit and your definitive statement, “No, they were given a prohibition about an actual fruit, a ripe seed body on a tree. You also said: “But that is not the fruit concerning which they were given a prohibition.” I stated and stand by the postulation that: Yes, it is. The fruit was “ingested” and the reward for disobedience was that fruit itself. They chose, and received the reward of that choice - The “fruit.” If you swallow a spider and the spider’s venom poisons you from the inside, your reward for eating the spider is the spider, which is a byproduct of the spider itself. So, there is no, “fallacy of equivocation, switching the meaning of a term within an argument.” Adam and Eve reacted to the ingested fruit before ever even being cursed by God." To further dissect this point, I will pose the following question to you: Can the wrong choice be the consequence of that choice? I am eager for your answer.
You stated: “Absolutely. But that is not a license to treat the text as something other than the kind of literature it is. Scripture is more than human literature, but it is never less than that, and the meaning is bound by the literary type. You don’t reach a ceiling by kicking over a ladder, and you don’t reach a higher understanding of something by kicking over its literary type.” How do you know how I treat regular human literature vs scripture? Since this is an intelligent discussion, I would imagine that you felt the need to draw and project that comparison for some reason… So, what’s the reason for such a presumptuous assumption?
I have one more question. If you could travel in a time machine back to Biblical times and had the privilege of crossing paths with Jesus, do you think He would have chosen you to be a disciple and/or an apostle? Or, do you think you would have been better qualified to operate as a Sadducee/Pharisee? That last one is a rhetorical question and ties into my next point.
See, the difference between you and I is I am making and expressing clearly stated evidence-based “postulations” and welcome to the same. If your argument is not strong enough to be supported by any evidence-based postulations, then, perhaps it is a weak one rooted in emotion and an arrogant species of pride. How about this, why don’t you demonstrate why Biblical words should not be considered to hold any symbolic meaning (unless potentially in a clearly stated parable).
I postulate out of reverence for God, even if I feel 99% certain of something in regard to His word, I always remember the book of Job where God said (and I strongly urge you to read this Biblical excerpt very carefully):
Job 38
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
“Who is this who obscures My counsel by words without knowledge?
Now brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall inform Me.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,
while the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment and thick darkness its blanket,
when I fixed its boundaries and set in place its bars and doors,
and I declared: ‘You may come this far, but no farther;
here your proud waves must stop’?
In your days, have you commanded the morning or assigned the dawn its place,
that it might spread to the ends of the earth and shake the wicked out of it?
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its hills stand out like the folds of a garment.
Light is withheld from the wicked, and their upraised arm is broken.
Have you journeyed to the vents of the sea or walked in the trenches of the deep?
Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
Have you surveyed the extent of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
Where is the way to the home of light?
Do you know where darkness resides, so you can lead it back to its border?
Do you know the paths to its home?
Surely you know, for you were already born!
And the number of your days is great!
Have you entered the storehouses of snow or observed the storehouses of hail,
which I hold in reserve for times of trouble, for the day of war and battle?
In which direction is the lightning dispersed,
or the east wind scattered over the earth?
Who cuts a channel for the flood or clears a path for the thunderbolt,
to bring rain on a barren land,
on a desert where no man lives,
to satisfy the parched wasteland and make it sprout with tender grass?
Does the rain have a father?
Who has begotten the drops of dew?
From whose womb does the ice emerge?
Who gives birth to the frost from heaven, when the waters become hard as stone and the surface of the deep is frozen?
Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion?
Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear and her cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
Can you command the clouds so that a flood of water covers you?
Can you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
Who has put wisdom in the heart or given understanding to the mind?
Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Or who can tilt the water jars of the heavens when the dust hardens into a mass and the clods of earth stick together?
Can you hunt the prey for a lioness or satisfy the hunger of young lions when they crouch in their dens and lie in wait in the thicket?
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God as they wander about for lack of food?
So, if you disagree… well, then, disagree. Perhaps, even provide evidence-based citations that contradict my postulations to prove a point (at the very least). But, don’t tell me how to think because that’s not your place, because the truth is that you don’t know for certain, and neither do I.
©
Amina
The point isn’t that the content of Genesis is a parable but that the parable is an example of the Bible using symbolism. But frankly there is symbolism everywhere in the Bible and the rest of the Bible does treat elements of the story in Genesis as symbolic. The snake, named adversary of humanity in the text, is thus identified with Satan or the devil, an angel who was eventually expelled from heaven. The tree of life is also mentioned frequently as representing all kinds of things and not as some angiosperm species like an apple tree.
I think it is crystal clear that because of the things in the story pointing to sex, the belief that the fruit represented sex is found throughout the whole history of Christianity (historian Elaine Pagels: 2nd century Tatian, 5th century Augustine). I think the case for the fruit referring to sex is quite a good one. BUT I do not believe sex is the original sin, because I do not think eating the fruit was the first sin.
I think what we have in the story is a parental commandment like “don’t play in the street or you will die.” The point is that this is dangerous. And I think this is definitely the case with sexuality. It is dangerous because it is a powerful experience involving the kinds of drugs in the body which are addictive. As a result sexuality demonstrably can and has led many people in very destructive directions, addicting them to things which cause all kinds of damage to people and society. So I think the warning God was giving was that a premature sexual relationship was filled with spiritual peril and the likelihood that they would sin (causing spiritual death) as a result was very high – just like the danger of children playing in the street.
Think about this. The ceremony of marriage by which God gives his blessing was always a very important sacrament in both Judaism and Christianity. So where was this ceremony in the case of Adam and Eve. Yes people like to point to Genesis 1 as God’s blessing for them to multiply. But as is frequently pointed out in this forum, THESE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CREATION STORIES. And especially in the context of evolution where Adam and Eve where not golems created by necromancy from dust and bone, but simply two in a world filled with people who God chose to speak to, their story is NOT the story told in Genesis chapter 1 at all. God expected something significantly more from Adam and Eve than just a biological species multiplying over the earth – that goal was already accomplished as made clear in the story of Cain!
Anyway… I strongly disagree with the notion that sin is disobedience – far too convenient for those using religion as a tool of power. I believe that sin represents self-destructive habits. In this case the first self-destructive habit we see is Adam and Eve blaming their own mistakes on everything but themselves. Furthermore we can easily see how this bad habit quickly led to the downfall of humanity in the stories which followed.
1 Like
It is sad that sex has been labelled as something bad and associated with sin and evil, rather than the good God intended it to be. I do not find such an attitude in the creation story. The forbidden fruit in the Eden story could not be sex because sex was already a part of the good creation of God.
If we look at the marital theology in the biblical scriptures, the teachings are built on the creation story. You can find that starting point in the teachings of Jesus and Paul. God made humans man and woman and, as with all creatures, the intention was that man and woman would unite and multiply. This was part of the good creation of God.
Paul even took this starting point to the extreme end by telling that if someone unites with a prostitute, they become one, as man and wife.
In practice, the problem is that sexual desires can be strong and so is the temptation to step outside the boundaries described in the teachings of the biblical scriptures. In this, the field of sex becomes a question and test of whether we are willing to respect the boundaries we believe are set by God, or do we set ourselves as the rulers who can decide what is ok and what is not.
It should be noted that sex is not the only field of temptation in our life and in many parts of the biblical scriptures, other temptations are listed as even more important ones than the sexual temptations. Rebellion, greed and the sins of tongue are examples of this.
Liberal sex has become a part of many religions, idolatry and some forms of witchcraft because of the desire to be the ruler of my own life and to rule the lives of others. The basic question is not if any sex is ok, it is the question of who is the ruler, who decides what is ok and what is not. As I wrote, sex is not the only such temptation. Greed for money and power can be more destructive factors because we do not recognize these as rebellious goals. We think it is completely ok that some let such a greed to rule their lives in business and politics. We can see the same principle in the stock markets where the profit becomes the measure of good or bad - CEOs are dependent on the company producing profit every quartal or they are kicked out.
2 Likes
Amina, thanks for telling about your experiences. It is sad to read how you have been mistreated.
What you told reminds me of the experiences told by a person who had been a professional beauty model. She told me quite much about that world, the experiences of both female and male models, and about the good and bad sides of being a very beautiful woman. Being stabbed to the back by other women was a standard part of her experiences. The reasons for this kind of behaviour are understandable but the behaviour is not acceptable.
If you have tons of good qualities in addition to the outlook, it is pretty certain it will provoke emotional reactions in both females and males, and the reactions of males will provoke additional reactions in females. Not what God wants but the sad reality of our current life.
2 Likes
Mitchellmckain & Kai (Knor),
(This is a long one, so take your time with it.)
More than the fruit referring to sex, I think the fruit represents sexual sin/sin.
I agree that sex itself is not bad. I think it is a precious gift from God. More precious than most people realize. Too many people treat sex like a bag of potato chips, cheap and lacking honor. I think that sex outside of the covenant of marriage is a sin and a well-disguised form of self-sabotage that takes place in the spiritual realm first and in turn manifests in the physical realm in a plethora of ways. I think the fact that Jesus shed blood on that cross as an atonement for sin, is further evidence that sin does indeed exist; 1 Peter 3:18; "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.” Below, I will continue to provide evidence-based definitions of sexual sin.
Of course, there are other sins like envy, gluttony, greed, etc.
God breathing life into Adam is no form of magic. Magic/sorcery/witchcraft is defined as the utilization of original God energy outside of the will of God. It’s like me borrowing your car and saying it belongs to me now, and I can do what I please with it, despite it not being in my name. So, God could create a “New Jerusalem” and have it float down from the Heavens onto 2nd Earth (Revelation 21), and that would not be categorized as magic because it aligns with the will of God and He is the original source of energy/life. God raised the dead, but that was not magic, as it was the will of God. Today, miracles are possible as a byproduct of the will of God. Magic and sorcery is the theft of God’s energy because it opposes the will of God. To align with the will of God, one must first submit to God. As it is written in Proverbs 10:22; “The blessings of the Lord make rich and add no sorrow.” When the devil and his minions reward their minions (some humans (knowingly or unknowingly) fit this category), the price is one’s soul.” Mark 8:36; For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
The choice for man to use such energy outside of the will of God further allows for Man to ultimately sift himself into 1 of 2 categories (Heaven or Hell). Much of this life is a sifting process and so many forget that: Matthew 13:44; “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.” Ahh, if people could only see what they are bartering with. That’s right, some ambiguity is necessary to see one’s true colors, and God knows that quite well.
The rewards on this Earth are fool’s gold, anyway. See, God can use His energy however He pleases. Thankfully, God is good. Man cannot use God’s energy however man pleases because man is a created being unlike God, any energy man has is borrowed. So, energetically, man can only serve one of two purposes/agendas; The Kingdom of light vs The kingdom of Darkness. The devil feeds off of man. Remember, God created man from dust. When God cursed the devil, He said: Genesis 3:14; “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.” If I were foolish enough to take this literally (since we are in Genesis and all) then I have to believe that snakes eat dirt. But, they don’t, they just live in it. The devil and his minions feed off of human energy. Abortions, eye gates fixed on corn, trafficking, lust, envy, sloth, hatred… it all feeds the demonic battery that powers this world. When will people wake up and rebel against it? The ultimate form of rebellion is holiness, honor, and righteousness. 2 Corinthians 10:4; “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.” So many cried when they saw Sound of Freedom (trafficking movie), but how many of those same people would turn away from sin (envy, pride, lust) even if they knew it would make a difference in the amount of suffering in this world? Very few, I am willing to bet. As a result, it is rightly so that the gate to Heaven is a narrow one; Matthew 7:13-14; “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” My body trembles as I write this paragraph. The truth is, most people value their potato chip “pleasures” over the Truth. Most people don’t understand, because they simply don’t want to, and for that, they will ultimately get their reward. Truly, it’s only a matter of time.
Yes! I postulate that net sin has a net negative impact on humanity (with some exclusions). Look at the story of Jonah when he was to warn the people of Nineveh; Jonah 3:5-9. Look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; Genesis 19.
The devil has been disconnected from God as he was thrown down from Heaven, and needed to get dominion of man who was designed to have dominion over him/it; Genesis 1:26. By convincing Adam and Eve to eat of the “fruit” with their own free will, the devil then in turn, now has dominion over all those who aren’t truly submitted to God till this day. Those who are truly saved, reflect the “fruits” of the spirit; Genesis 5:22-23; “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control . Against such things there is no law.” Matthew 7:16-20; You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit . A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”
Not everyone who believes they are saved is. It’s not just about believing, but receiving through believing. To truly believe, one must receive God in a way that bears “fruit.” John 15:1-8; “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit , while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.” So, one has to remain in God, so that God can remain in them. This is a daily process, not a lazy one. We must raise our standards for ourselves and erase every lie in our mind (as a byproduct of severe conditioning) and hold ourselves to a higher standard of honor. If not for the sake of God, and if not for the sake of others, then as a form of retaliation against the systematic worldwide slavery that is rife to this day. If you can’t come from a place of passion, then come from a place of rebellion against oppression. But, don’t just sit there on your hands feeding every tingly fleshly and selfish urge as a form of sensory sedation. Let passion be your driving force in this regard. So many call themselves “passionate” but they are not. They are liars. True passion does not stem from systematic slavery, like a hamster on a wheel chasing a carrot. True passion is rooted in mental freedom and rebellion against systematic cages of thought and sub-par standardization for the masses. The Bible is not a tool for skewing to justify one’s cravings. Rather, it is a standard to wholeheartedly attempt to live up to. Too many people are far too comfortable in their own mediocrity.
My flesh will not dictate my actions, for I am in control over this chassis under the willful submission of God. I will not be dragged around life by my “parts.” I was not created to fall into the trap of willful amateurism.
Mitchellmckain, you said: “I think what we have in the story is a parental commandment like “don’t play in the street or you will die.” The point is that this is dangerous. And I think this is the case with sexuality. It is dangerous because it is a powerful experience involving the kinds of drugs in the body which are addictive. As a result sexuality demonstrably can and has led many people in very destructive directions, addicting them to things which cause all kinds of damage to people and society. So I think the warning God was giving was that a premature sexual relationship was filled with spiritual peril and the likelihood that they would sin as a result was very high – just like the danger of children playing in the street.” I hope I am understanding you correctly. Romans 6:23; “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I think that the disobedience in the garden of eating the “fruit” was a sin. Disobedience is a form of sin, but a choice nonetheless. Sin is a gateway that leads to more sin, like a virus that spreads throughout the body, mind, and others. Sin is a free choice, but it comes with consequences. Perhaps you agree with this particular point?
See:
Deuteronomy 28: But if you disobey the Lord your God and do not faithfully keep all his commands and laws that I am giving you today, all these evil things will happen to you: "The Lord will curse your towns and your fields. The Lord will curse your grain crops and the food you prepare from them. The Lord will curse you by giving you only a few children, poor crops, and few cattle and sheep. The Lord will curse everything you do. If you do evil and reject the Lord, he will bring on you disaster, confusion, and trouble in everything you do, until you are quickly and completely destroyed. He will send disease after disease on you until there is not one of you left in the land that you are about to occupy. The Lord will strike you with infectious diseases, with swelling and fever; he will send drought and scorching winds to destroy your crops. These disasters will be with you until you die.”
And, even though the curse upon Adam and Eve happened in the Old Testament, the effects of those curses are still experienced to this day.
John 14:23; “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.” Then, Psalm 91:14-16 says: “Because he hath set his love upon me , therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.” Notice the bolded “If anyone loves me…” has a causal relationship with the bolded “Because he set his love upon me…” Meaning that one must meet certain criteria to receive salvation.
Many people think they have this salvation, but they don’t. There is a mass deception to perpetuate a sense of salvation in people who don’t have it because I have reason to suspect that there is a nephilim agenda at work in this world; (Revelation 12:9; “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him”). Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.”
Spiritual warfare is necessary to war in the spirit against all kinds of things such as lust, greed, envy, etc. witchcraft, occult practices, etc. 2 Corinthians 4:4; “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” Matthew 25:41; “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Ephesians 6:12; “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” The weapons of our warfare are not physical, but spiritual.
2 Corinthians 11:3, “But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.”
Ephesians 6:13; “Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.”
The spiritual battle is real as you can see. If someone is blind to this battle, they will lose in ignorant silence, whether knowing or unknowingly. Matthew 7:13; “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”
One could argue that the removal of Adam’s rib (whether physical or spiritual) was ceremonial. Even if there was no official ceremony, the Bible makes clear in Genesis 2:18; “… I will make him a helper suitable for him.” So ceremony or not, sex with the devil (or whoever else) would have been categorized as sin or “bad.” Polygamy is not permitted.
Now, let’s go a step further:
Pornea (Greek): Illicit sexual activity; Fornication is another translation.
Again, there are many other sins (included below), but as one of you pointed out; 1 Corinthians 6:9-15;
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. “Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.“Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will destroy them both. The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By His power God raised the Lord from the dead, and He will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.”
And to conclude this point, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20;
“Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a man can commit is outside his body , but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.”
Main point: Unholy sex is the only sin man can commit inside of his own body. Think about this. STD, not the kind that acronym is known for. No, I mean Spiritually Transmitted Disease. The Bible makes clear multiple times that man is a vessel capable of carrying thousands of demons at any given time (Mark 5:6-9 “…My name is legion, for we are many.” … Unholy sex is an access point for the transfer of demons (a means for quantum demotion) and a consequence of participation in the witchcraft that is action outside of the will of God. One of many kinds of real-life examples: Man has unholy sex with girl, she struggles with overeating, man in turn gains excess weight due to his aquired urge. Or, “Girl has unholy sex with man, man has generational curse of genetic mutation, girl gets pregnant with afflicted child either via that man or someone else.” More, “Woman struggles with unforgiveness, said woman gets bone cancer and dies” - Biblical evidence: Proverbs 14:30; “A sound heart is the life of the flesh, but envy is the rottenness of the bones.” This list can go on and on and on and on. If you could see what some people looked like in the spirit, you would see bondage. Biblical evidence of the spiritual realm acting in congruence with this physical realm: 2 Kings 6:17; “Open his eyes, LORD, so that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.” For the sake of intellectual discourse, I invite you both (or anyone else) to refute me.
Matthew 16:19; For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Acts: 15:20; But should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
2 Corinthians 12:21; I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.
Galatians 5:!9; Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Matthew 5:28; But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
And the Bible makes it explicitly clear that God does not condone “whoredome” or prostitution. There is spiritual whoredom; Psalm 106:39. There is also physical whoredom, look at the story of Gomer and Hosea - The physical act of whoredom (potentially for ritual purposes to Baal, no less). There are many examples in the Bible of sex worship to false gods. I dare say that all sexual immorality is an offering to Baal/demons. Remember, energy can go to only one of two places, and that is why there is a Heaven and a Hell. And there are correlations drawn between that and the spiritual adultery of the people of Israel (in the story of Gomer in Hosea). So the points I just made are applicable not only to Biblical texts but also to modern-day living.
Mitchellmckain, you stated: “ And especially in the context of evolution where Adam and Eve were not golems created by necromancy from dust and bone, but simply two in a world filled with people who God chose to speak to, their story is NOT the story told in Genesis chapter 1 at all. God expected something significantly more from Adam and Eve than just a biological species multiplying over the earth – that goal was already accomplished as made clear in the story of Cain!” Are you saying that Adam and Ever where not the first created humans, and that humans already existed on Earth at that time? Genisis 4:1; “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain…” Adam and Eve also had daughters. I suspect Cain took his sister/half-sister (as was common in those earlier, genetically cleanlier days in which God had not yet restricted the practice of marrying close relatives (which held necessity back then).
Do some men attempt to stand between the space of man and God in an effort to exert authority? Yes. However, that does not mean that God agrees. The first self-destructive habit was sin itself, and still continues to be a self-destructive habit to this very day.
Good things can be tainted, man, for instance: In the beginning, God was pleased with man, (Genisis1:31). Man was kicked out of the Garden as a result of God being displeased with man, (Genisis 3, etc.). So, just because God gifted man with sex, does not mean that it cannot be tainted or bent. God is God, and He has specified certain standards. Not everyone is “Ruled” (per the word you used, Kai) by God. Some people are ruled by demons and feed the impulses of those demons. Kai, I touched upon the issues of other types of sins/consequences above. Kai, in regard to your stock market example: Matthew 6:24; “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
So, as I have expressed, there is only one of two options in terms of energy output; Good (light) vs evil (Dark). Have you ever noticed that dark matter emits no light energy? 2 Corinthians 6:14; “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?). 1 John 1:5; “This then is the message which we have heard from Him and declare unto you: that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.”
For all of these reasons, I stand by the likelihood and evidence-supported possibility that since everyone is not operating on the same wavelength in terms of energetic alignment to God (either within proximity or at distance from God for the reasons stated above), then in terms of quantum correlated physical reality (as effectually impacted by the spiritual realm), not everyone is operating in the same “dimension”. So, Jesus was able to heal a man that his apostles were not able to heal. When asked why, Jesus replied, Matthew 7:21; “However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.” Meaning that there is a causal relationship to the dimensional access one can wield in the physical by doing things like “denying the flesh” (I.e. fleeing from sin). Denying the flesh because: Don’t allow your desires to rule you, for you know not from whence they originate (I just made that up). Regardless, Romans 8:13 says: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit, ye shall live.” Jesus was able to tap into a higher dimension through the cost of denying his flesh for the reward of heightened spiritual rank and access. The true currency is energy - I am sure Nicola Tesla would have agreed in that sense. That is why there is such a pervasive agenda to convince humans to be followers. Everyone is fornicating… everyone is watching corn… everyone is gossiping… everyone is stealing, corporate greed is the way up the ladder… etc. All the while, spiritual access, rank, and ultimate destination is the pit. Conformity for acceptance.
One’s soul is not worth gambling with or being a follower over. I suspect that many of those who people follow are hybrids/nephilim agents, anyway. Look what Jesus said to his spiritual opposition: John 8:44; “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
Let me ask: Is there anyone in this world that you would follow into Hell?
Look at this painting. I love this piece by Cinta Vidal titled White Landscape 3.
Technically, all of these people are in the same picture. But, not everyone is in the same place. The word of God is many things, including a roadmap to navigate the spiritual nature of quantum reality. To play the game of life at that level (and there are levels), one needs a decent level of spiritual rank. Jesus explains how through His word for those capable enough to diligently pursue it.
©
Amina
Kai (Knor),
My response to you is above with your name on it.
Your long posts have been quite a deterrent. I thought about saying they were unfocused but maybe it is because they just were not addressed to me… because this one was easier for me to follow.
It is like a great many things in life, not bad, but dangerous. Religion is like this – very dangerous, extreme caution required. Fire, of course. And drugs, obviously. All very useful for good. But dangerous and requiring guidance and caution. But certainly some uses of these things are very bad indeed.
God’s breath is the literal meaning of “inspiration.” And that is clearly what Genesis 2 is referring to because the earth is already filled with both animals and people. There is no non-physical thing added to matter which makes it alive or a person. These magical myths are now quite solidly ruled out by the findings of science. Things are alive and a person entirely because of their material composition, organization, and processes.
The idea of magic is the product of infancy, where the infant cries and beings more powerful and knowledgeable scurry about to find out what the infant needs and make their discomfort go away. Magic is all about a lack of knowledge. So Arthur C. Clarke said “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Not only that but we have magic shows which is based on misdirection and keeping the audience from understanding how you do something.
There are no violations of the laws of nature because the fixed character of the laws of nature is a necessity for the existence of life. God can do anything, but means are not independent of the results, so I do not believe God violates the laws He made, especially not to impress ignorant savages who cannot possibly know the difference anyway.
That said… the laws of nature allow more than many might think because they are primarily statistical in nature. God made the world for a relationship, so He could participate in our lives. And He does so with miracles (which are by definition quite rare). He cannot live our lives for us without distorting the statistics and thus violating the laws of nature He created.
Jesus said you must be “perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” This is referring to sin. There is no room for sin in the kingdom of God, because sin will destroy the goodness of any place and turn it into hell. But this does not mean that God is stingy or selective with regards to heaven. He offers it to all, and will help you meet these requirements. The point is that you have to be willing to let your sins go.
I do not. Disobedience is as natural to children as breathing. It is a function of intelligence that you learn things for yourself. BUT you have to be willing to learn from your mistakes. And if THAT had been A&E’s response to God’s inquiry about what they had done then there would have been no fall of man. But God knew that fear would be a natural result and fear is a potent motivation for the misuse of the gifts God gave them, and that misuse in blaming everyone but themselves for their mistake (and thereby refusing to learn from their mistake), was a definite turn for the worse. And Adam’s implicit blame for God Himself (saying it was that woman you gave me), broke the parent-child relationship. Because there is only ONE thing which can break a parent-child relationship and that is when the parent’s presence in the child’s life does more harm than good. That is what happened when they changed the role of God from their greatest teacher to their greatest scapegoat. So it was necessary that they live by the sweat of their own brow and learn that their responsibilities cannot be escaped from.
This idea of God cursing people is just a primitive way of understanding consequences in life. Indirectly God is responsible because He made the world with its unforgiving natural laws. But no, it is more than obvious that God does not selectively punish bad people and give only good things to good people – not even close.
Nobody has salvation. Salvation belongs to God alone. This idea of “having salvation” is basically entitlement. It is the opposite of faith and it is how religion becomes an evil force in the world.
No, I am not. This is because human beings are more than just a biological species. But Adam and Eve most certainly were not the first homo sapiens. God spoke to Adam and Eve and this inspiration brought the human mind to life. At that instant all homo sapiens were transformed in a purely abstract way – they now had the potential to become human beings just like any child born to Adam and Eve. And the inspiration given to Adam and Eve spread over the earth far far faster than any genetic descent. It is the mind, a living organism in its own right (with its own needs and inheritance passed to the next generation) that makes us human, not our bodies, which are not so different than other animals. Human language, with its representational capabilities to surpass DNA, can be the medium for the self-organizing process of life (just as DNA is). That living organism is the human mind.
There is no such thing in the text, and frankly this is the typical pagan way of thinking, that any bad thing happens because the gods are displeased with them. But no, that is not how God does things at all. The Garden is the Earth (some places more of a garden of Eden than others to be sure). The change is mankind alone when we misused our gift of a mind to twist the truth and go against the very requirements of life itself. And yes the relationship with God our parent was broken and so he could no longer walk with us side by side (not so unhidden anyway). He still intervened when it was crucial for redemption, but for the most part we had to make our own way in the world to learn that responsibility cannot be escaped.
Let me ask this counter question? Will you follow your own heart’s desire?
I often say hell is our heart’s desire, but heaven is God’s desire for us.
In other words, the people you should not follow into hell includes you yourself.
Nonsense. The place where you will learn about quantum theory is physics, not the Bible. And you will learn that the woo woo people have been adding to it is all wrong. Is there any relevance? Yes. But all it means is that science is compatible with some of the religious/spiritual views of things. This science is certainly not a key to understanding or controlling such things.
Rank? Sounds like Gnosticism or Scientology.
What Jesus said is… “The greatest among you will be your servant.” This is God’s idea of greatness.
1 Like