Witchcraft and sorcery is Biblically evidenced, but does it still occur in current times and is quantum physics a component?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Mitchellmckain,

On a forum where discourse occurs, and intellectuals gather to discuss, I figured attention span would not be an issue. I am not saying it is an issue for you, I am simply saying that I didn’t feel the need to fast-food my words, hence my attraction to this forum in the first place. One writing in a thorough and multifaceted yet relevant manner is par for the course (and a great tool to sharpen ones own mind with, speaking for myself). I’m glad this one was easier for you to follow. I hope you read all of what I wrote.

In terms of not following myself into Hell, Romans 12:2; “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” Fortunately for me, my mind and heart have been renewed. So when you say, “In other words, the people you should not follow into hell include you yourself” I know what it feels like for the good work to be done in me and my desires have been transformed by Christ. Philippians 1:6; “Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ.”

How would you define the “laws of nature”?

What do you mean when you say that the laws of nature are “primarily statistical in nature”?

Why do you think miracles are rare and not common? (I have a very relevant testimony on this).

Do you agree with Romans 6:23?; “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

You said: “There is no room for sin in the kingdom of God because sin will destroy the goodness of any place and turn it into hell. But this does not mean that God is stingy or selective with regard to heaven. He offers it to all and will help you meet these requirements. The point is that you have to be willing to let your sins go.” Okay, I would say that selectivity is a component and there are qualifying factors to enter into the Kingdom. I can agree with some of what you said in this regard.

You said: “Disobedience is as natural to children as breathing. It is a function of intelligence that you learn things for yourself. BUT you have to be willing to learn from your mistakes. And if THAT had been A&E’s response to God’s inquiry about what they had done then there would have been no fall of man.” While this helps me to understand your stance more, I beg to differ. Romans 6:23; “For the wages of sin is death , but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Repentance is a (hopeful) byproduct of sin and is only necessary because sin first occurred. Sin’s wages are death. So, sin has wages. The wages are death. Do you disagree with Biblical text? Do you think sin can be a consequence of sin?

You said: “Nobody has salvation. Salvation belongs to God alone. This idea of “having salvation” is basically entitlement. It is the opposite of faith and it is how religion becomes an evil force in the world." Have you seen these Bible versus? John 3:16-18; “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” Ephesians 2:8; “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-“ … a gift that I gladly receive, lol.

You said: “There is no such thing is in the text and frankly this is the typical pagan way of thinking, that any bad thing happens because the gods are displeased with them. But no, that is not how God does things at all.” I don’t believe in gods, just the one true God. I strongly encourage you to re-read what I previously replied, especially the portions that are copied and pasted from the Bible. Do you think that bad things happen to people as a byproduct of sin? I copied and pasted so many examples from the Bible in my last post to you. What do you think about how Biblical texts directly align with what I say? Do you disagree with the Bible?

Do you think that it is possible for God to be both God and the Truth, simultaneously?

Your username is described as Scientist and Christian. Yet, your beliefs seem to contradict basic text. Though, there are plenty of people walking around the world operating under their own definition of Christianity. So, what does it mean to be a Christian to you?

Do you think that the Bible is a science? Science defined: A systematic organized body of knowledge on a particular subject.

You said: “Is there any relevance? Yes.” In terms of the relevance of the quantum component of the Bible. You then continue to state: “But all it means is that science is compatible with some of the religious/spiritual views of things. This science is certainly not a key to understanding or controlling such things.” I agree, hence the first chart I posted. I posted it again for easier reference.

Rank is a component and many false religions have some sprinkles of truth (but mostly lies) to make more appealing. By spiritual rank, I mean a form of favoritism. God favors those close to Him. Those close to God are adept at avoiding sin through God, but there is only one perfect God. God loves all men, but the “men after God’s own heart” are the ones at shorter distance from Him. Sin creates distance. Also, God does not need to demonstrate His reasons for choosing to man. Oftentimes, God’s favor comes with greater obstacles. Like, playing the game of life at level 10 vs level 1. Isaiah 45:4; “For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me. Luke 1:28; “And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” Romans 9:15; “For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” God afflicted Moses’s sister Miriam with leprosy as a result/consequence of what occurred in Numbers 12: “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite woman. They said, “Is it true that the Lord has spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it.” And in turn, the Lord cursed Miriam for her posture. They felt it was unfair that Moses had higher-level permissions/access. Psalm 5:12; “For you bless the righteous, O Lord; you cover him with favor as with a shield.” Part of having high spiritual rank does indeed involve being a servant. However, the relationship progresses to a point where, as it is written: John 15:14; “You are my friends if you do what I command.” I know what it feels like to be a friend to God, and I can even provide specific examples. Rare examples. Would you like me to share some? I am curious if you have any.

So, no. Because of what I have experienced through God and His word, I could never lead me to Hell (as you somewhat put it).

Amina

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Luke 18 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other;”

I am a physicist. The laws of nature consist of mathematical equations.

That is one of the things you learn when you actually study quantum physics.

Because otherwise they wouldn’t be miracles but laws of nature.

Yes.

We differ on what sin is. You think sin are these rules made up by you and your religious friends that people have to follow or your god is going to get them. I think sin are these self-destructive habits and death is just what they do to people.

You quote the words but don’t seem to understand the meaning. Somehow you change these words to “by your faith which is your devotion to your religion you have earned this indulgence you call “gift of salvation,” so you now have this high spiritual ranking by which you not only have salvation in your pocket but have extras which you can dispense to other people as well.” Jesus met people like that and He didn’t seem to think much of them at all (Matthew 23).

Only when you rewrite the text to your personal interpretation of them.

I go with the definition agreed upon by the first ecumenical council of 325 AD in Nicaea. It is quite sufficient to distinguish it from other religions like Islam. But it is certainly true that Christianity has divided numerous times since then each with their own additions to the creed to fit their own personal beliefs.

That is a definition from the middle ages.

Modern science is defined by two methodological ideals. The first is the honesty of testing your hypotheses rather than hunting up reasons to believe in it the way politicians and lawyers do. The second is the objectivity of a written procedure anyone can follow to get the same result no matter what they want or believe.

No, the Bible is not a science. It is a book – a remarkable book, I think. But we have no reasonable expectation that others should agree with what it says.

Matthew 23 "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;

Well Jesus certainly found out what it is like to deal with people who think God is their “friend.”

My assurance is entirely about the goodness of God and not about some imagined goodness of myself. So although I am confident that God loves us though we are sinners, I do not transform this into some entitlement to salvation let alone to things like enslaving black people and slaughtering the Native Americans.

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It is great that you have passion for God. I wish many more would live the ‘first love’ towards God true, although that passion will (and should) take different forms depending on the person, personal relationship with God and understanding about the will of God.

Last week, I attended a seminar about healthy and unhealthy use of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. It was an interesting seminar because the speakers came from different theological traditions (pentecostal, evangelical free church, Lutheran, RC, orthodox) as well as an organisation that works with the victims of religion (persons who have had bad experiences in congregations or other religious movements). The reason why I mention it here is that the seminar opened well the diversity of the ways how the Holy Spirit acts in and through believers. The visibly and audibly conspicious use of charisma by some preachers within the charismatic movement is surprisingly close to the calm prayers of believers in other Christian traditions because the Holy Spirit is acting through both ways. We easily underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit if the fire is not manifested in ways that are familiar (‘correct’) for us. We may also underestimate the faith of other believers if they live their faith in ways that are not as conspicious as ours or happen in a ‘wrong’ way.

I believe that the saving work of Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. My understanding is that the good works and the changed lifestyle of believers are the consequence of being saved, not a criteria needed for salvation - we cannot earn our salvation. Therefore, I would be very cautious about using expressions that seem to demand certain acts as a requisite for being saved.

To clarify what I wrote: I count receiving the gift of salvation and surrendering to King Jesus as part of the saving grace of God, rather than as an act of humans. Others might count it as cooperation (symphony) between us and the Holy Spirit.

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Kai (Knor) and Mitchellmckain,

One cannot earn salvation. It is not a works based gospel. Simultaneously, one must meet certain criteria to truly be saved. Receiving Jesus is one criteria. Bearing fruit is another demonstration of that criteria. I cited the specified criteria from the Bible in my prior post. Criteria is “a plural noun that refers to a standard or benchmark used to make a judgment or decision.” God judges. God has criteria. Through God, criteria is fulfilled. This fact does not mean that I don’t believe that the saving work of God is the way to salvation. Salvation is earned through receival of God, and true receival of God has demonstrable results. There is no reason for this plain and evidenced fact to be so triggering. Perhaps if you feel triggered, it is due to a potential deficit worth exploring within yourself. That does not mean that I “now have this high spiritual ranking by which you not only have salvation in your pocket but have extras which you can dispense to other people as well” as you say (Mitchellmckain). It simply means that I know the Truth as it was clearly stated in Biblical texts, and the fact that you are a physicist does not outrank the precious word of God, nor does it give you license to mischaracterize me. That’s the thing about spiritual ranking, worldly titles hold no bearing. I think that’s why this particular subject has the potential to evoke feelings of insecurity and even anger in some. Jesus Christ Himself was a carpenter. He could have chosen to enter into this world via a variety of ways, but He chose to come into this world a man of humble means. His disciples were fishers of men, had a special calling from God, and were selectively selected. Not everyone who asked to travel with Jesus was granted that privilege. My point is, God does not owe man any explanation for how He chooses to operate in this regard.

If one wants/desires to experience God at closer proximity, it may require a wholehearted attempt at loosening the bondage of sin to maximal capacity, pick up one’s cross, and carry it. Matthew 16:24; “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” Now, experiencing God at increased/closer proximity is not a requirement for salvation.

Mitchellmckain, you also stated: “by your faith which is your devotion to your religion you have earned this indulgence you call “gift of salvation,” - I know there was quite a bit for you to read from my last message. Let’s try this: Ephesians 2:8; “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—” So… just because I consider my salvation a gift through God that I recieved and accept, does not mean that I feel that I have recieved this gift from myself or by my own works. I hope that makes sense to you both. I was certain that this sentiment was already clearly stated (and it was).

God is the gift. And you know what, I consider Him a friend. Yes, I dare say it again, and even louder this time. I worked hard to earn that. Being saved was not enough for me, I wanted/want God to consider me a “fine fragrance.” Philippians 4:18; “They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever.” So, my level of submission to God is a form of worship as well. For example, I am not the best singer, but even though it pains my heart to hear my singing voice, I sing to God. Another example, I do all things to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31); And so, I don’t just mop the floor, I get down on my hands and knees and scrub that floor with passion. These are only two examples. I am bursting with love and I live to make God smile. No one can tell me how to worship. The relationship is deep, and I will always be a child at heart: Matthew 18:3; “What I’m about to tell you is true. You need to change and become like little children. If you don’t, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Mitchellmckain, you said: “Well Jesus certainly found out what it is like to deal with people who think God is their “friend.” - hahaha. “Those who keep God’s covenant are called his friends” ( Psalm 25:14). Levels. Some are okay with the worldly titles and use those titles to fill the void of spiritual mediocracy. And you know what, high-level spiritual ranking is again, not a requirement for salvation. All in all, I truly believe that everyone can learn something from anyone.

The correlation between what I said and Matthew 23 is a ridiculous one. Re read my definition of ranking and how favor is a component and then refute the Biblical citations previously provided.

Are the laws of nature not a byproduct of God’s perpetual design?

You have yet to prove how I have "rewritten the texts to my personal interpretation "

Honestly, I was really hoping to speak to a scientist. Yayy!! Just my luck, or blessing, rather. I wonder about so many things, and your insights are appreciated (even if lacking in accuracy). Cool. A physicist, no less! Let’s continue to explore how our perspectives hold up to the word of God.

I have got to ask (and this correlates to the main topic at hand): If you don’t mind sharing (and no pressure at all)… Have you ever had an out of the ordinary (supernatural) experience? I would like to know how you rationalized such (if) an experience to yourself, especially as a Christian scientist. Your outlook may be helpful.

If the formatting is off, it’s because I am traveling and typed this from my phone.

I almost missed this part: You said: “My assurance is entirely about the goodness of God and not about some imagined goodness of myself. So although I am confident that God loves us though we are sinners, I do not transform this into some entitlement to salvation let alone to things like enslaving black people and slaughtering the Native Americans.”

What does slavery and Native Americans have to do with your above statement? And, I am entirely sure of the Goodness of God operating through me, as I am a submitted vessel for His use. I submit on a moment to moment baisis. I am not perfect, but I am diligent. Like I stated in an example somewhere in this thread, even when I do a good deed, I don’t take credit for it, because I believe that all Goodness comes from God, even the songs of birds. I see God in everything, and words can’t describe the feeling.

I hope I addressed everything. I will circle back around and double check later.

<3

Amina

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Kai (Knor),

My response to you is posted above with your name.

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The first part in italics is indeed the Christian gospel. Yours sounds very different to me – with a lot of rhetoric to turn it into a gospel of salvation which is earned. When Jesus directly addressed this question in Matthew 19, He said nothing about “receiving Jesus” and “bearing fruit.” What He said was, “with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” He most certainly did not say, “all you have to do is receive me into your life.” The whole point was that the man wanted to get salvation done so he could get on with life, salvation taken care of. But salvation will never be one of your accomplishments in life, with this the man was barking up the wrong tree. So Jesus said, that is impossible.

I am not saying that what you do has no importance. After all Jesus’ immediate response to the man in Matthew 19 was all about what he was doing in life. But as Paul explains in Romans 10, there is righteousness base on law and righteousness based on faith, and the latter doesn’t even ask who is saved and who is damned – because once you do that, it isn’t faith anymore but legalism.

Salvation is by the grace God alone, and all you can do is have faith (and yes faith is seen in helping those in need, doing good, seeking justice, correcting oppression), with Christ as the only mediator, scripture as the only authority, and God as the only one to be praised. In other words, you do good for its own sake and not thinking you earn anything by doing so, leaving salvation entirely in the hands of God.

I disagree.

And your posts are filled with justifications for entitlement, which I will never have any sympathy for.

I don’t know why you have added the word “perpetual” but I doubt I would agree with it. But I do believe the laws of nature are a product of God designing the universe to support the self-organizing process of life.

It is sufficient that you judge the meaning I get from the text according to your understanding of the text. Logically that means you have replaced the text with your understanding of it.

Define out of the ordinary (supernatural) experience.

I can tell you right now that I do not try to explain things away as many atheists do, deciding that anything which doesn’t fit their worldview must be a hallucination or something. And although science procedurally excludes personal experience and feelings from its objective determinations, I don’t think that means these should be excluded from the data which should be considered relevant to our understanding of reality outside of science.

While science is founded on objective observation, life requires subjective participation. And I would say personal experience is the most real and immediate evidence for understanding reality while objective determinations are a product of abstraction. On the other hand, subjective and personal experience do not provide any reasonable expectation that others should accept our conclusions. So while I embrace the subjective to live my life, I accept that diversity is quite natural in this and should be accepted by reasonable people.

It is an example of how entitlement transforms religion into something evil. So people say they have this experience of God as their friend and are at a higher level than black people and native Americans so they see the work of God in their attempts to educate black people as slaves and remove the native Americans from the land which could be better used by those devoted to the work God.

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And as I noted in a discussion one day in grad school, Paul’s point means that there is no such thing as premarital sex.

This reminds me of a theology professor who actually maintained that different ethics applied to the business world.

In context it’s referring to love:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Interesting concept – it certainly strikes a parallel with John 1:12.

That’s tough to fit with the text, which specifies that the Garden was a special place for a special pair.

That fits with an ancient idea that the Garden was an example of what the whole planet was meant to become under human dominion-stewardship, with Adam & Eve being turned out to try to manage that on their own since they had severed the close relationship with God.

I second that motion.

Ditto that.

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I can’t pass by this one.

The Bible is not a science; it is neither systematic nor organized. That’s why the branch of theology known as “systematics” exists, to try to lay out the pattern and organize things according to it.

Explain then why one of the biggest screw-ups in the Hebrew part of the Bible is the one called a man after God’s own heart.

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I think “are described by” works better.

I’ll add that they aren’t shown as frequent in the Bible. Mostly they come in two great bursts, around the Exodus and the Incarnation, the two big redemptive episodes.

Sounds like the Roman Catholic system of saints and the “treasury of merits”.

No. Not in the least!

The only thing we can earn is death; the other option is the free gift through Christ – that is the contrast that Paul sets forth. It is not a question of earning one or the other, it is a matter of earning or receiving.

The New Testament knows only two ranks: those who love the Light, and those who love the dark. The title of the first is “saint”, the title of the second is “nonbeliever”.

That is not a rank, it is an office (in the ancient sense).

I note it doesn’t say that they call themselves His friends – as with the title “Imperator” in ancient Rome, that is an accolade bestowed by others.

Nor is it something that can be checked off on a list so we can “get on with life”!

And sometimes find yourself doing good and not understanding why you did.

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It should be added that Amina did respond to the things I said which you quoted, including the rejection of some of my paraphrases. I remain in disagreement with many of the things she said, but I do feel uncomfortable that my characterizations are repeated without her responses. They are how I have characterized what she said in order to make a point and not what she actually said.

And the context of that passage was Jesus talking about sin. To be sure, love is central. Jesus made that clear with His two greatest commandments summary of all the law and the prophets. Remember I frequently reject equating sin with disobedience to a set of rules. And that was kind of the point of that portion of the sermon on the Mount – to say it wasn’t about a set of rules you could maneuver your way around like a lawyer, but rather very much about what is in your heart.

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Kai,

You seem like a nice person. I hear what you are saying. Always remember context. I explained what I meant when I said, “I worked hard for this.” “Picking up one’s cross” (Matthew 16:24) requires an exertion of one’s effort, but the strength comes from God. It is a collaborative team effort between man and God. There is no I without we (we=God and myself in this example), and no me without He.

Now, do I pride (for lack of a better term) myself in being an above-average teammate with God in terms of making myself a clean vessel (in terms of the rate at which I (like Neo in the matrix) flee from sin? Yes. This is a means for me to experience God at closer proximity. This is also one of the many ways in which I worship. I dedicate myself to God. It’s a healthy outlook (Matthew 2:21). Not only have I benefited, but so have those around me.

God’s grace defined: Undeserved favor.

There is nothing wrong with me collaboratively working with God (under the submission of His will), for God’s Glory. It requires an expression of effort on my part, and I choose to participate accordingly as per my free will (in congruence with His). You said: “I have not been shown grace and occasional blessings because of what I have done but despite it.” I hear you, and God is free to give grace as He pleases. However, God’s grace is not always infinite, God is. I won’t treat God’s grace like a guaranteed spot in a welfare line (think food stamps). I respect God too much to say on the “little kid” rides at the theme park. I am thankful for God’s grace. This topic goes past the point of grace. Consecration. Past the point of grace is consecration. Past the point of consecration, grace is a bonus. Consecration is for the “big leagues” (for lack of a better term). Grace can be an initial requirement (Ephesians 2:8) and a bonus down the line, simultaneously. Not everyone is willing to consecrate.

You said: “… but I am not a supporter of prosperity theology - far from it” Okay, I do not support the idea of a prosperity theology or the idea of treating God like a vending machine. I do believe that God has the freedom to give what He wants to who He chooses. The formula is not the same for everyone (Numbers 12:1-16). What I mean by “this formula is not the same for everyone” is, one person may pray for something and receive it while another person prays for the same thing and does not. Both parties may have taken corresponding actions (on paper) in regard to their requests to God, but their outcomes differ. Again, God is not a vending machine.

St Raymond,

I have little to say to someone who piggybacks into the conversation after quietly tip-toeing out of the conversation after being systematically refuted past the point of any rebuttal whatsoever. I would advise you to go back a few posts and start responding from there.

Mitchellmckain,

In response to your, “It should be added that Amina did respond to the things I said which you quoted, including the rejection of some of my paraphrases. I remain in disagreement with many of the things she said, but I do feel uncomfortable that my characterizations are repeated without her responses. They are how I have characterized what she said in order to make a point and not what she actually said.” As I previously stated, I am traveling. I do feel as though I am speaking into an empty room when conversing with you, and probably would have ignored your message if not for your indirect ringing of the bell.

So much of what you have said, I have already addressed. I advise that you take your time and sit down somewhere quiet, and read everything I wrote from the very top. Making some notes may help, considering the length. I make notes sometimes.

Before I continue, you stated. “…but I do feel uncomfortable that my characterizations are repeated without her responses.” I want you to always remember that I am under no obligation to respond to you. I just don’t like speaking into empty rooms, more than anything, it’s boring. Part of the reason why I am here is to have fun (the things that thrill me are a bit different than the things that may thrill someone else).

You said: “The first part in italics is indeed the Christian gospel. Yours sounds very different to me – with a lot of rhetoric to turn it into a gospel of salvation which is earned. When Jesus directly addressed this question in Matthew 19, He said nothing about “receiving Jesus” and “bearing fruit.” What He said was, “with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Salvation will never be one of your accomplishments in life. Jesus said that is impossible. To that I respond: As I clearly described earlier in this post (and I will describe it in different words in an attempt to assist in your understanding, what I am discussing here, is beyond the point of salvation, this is about consecration (2 Timothy 2:21).

You said: “And your posts are filled with justifications for entitlement, which I will never have any sympathy for.” Thankfully, I am not the slightest bit interested in your sympathies. Lol. So, how are “all” of my posts filled with justifications for entitlement? Can you give me 4 bulleted examples that specify/prove your statement? If you can’t do that successfully, your argument is not only one rooted in fallacy, but the possibility of intentional character assassination on your part tremendously increases. You already stated, “They are how I have characterized what she said in order to make a point and not what she actually said.” I don’t need you to characterize my words. If your next response does not answer the bulleted question in this paragraph, you may be ignored by me.

You said: “I don’t know why you have added the word “perpetual” but I doubt I would agree with it. But I do believe the laws of nature are a product of God designing the universe to support the self-organizing process of life.” Is God’s creation not perpetual in nature? Perpetual defined: Continuing forever. I gave the fractal examples previously in the thread. Please use the visual imagery of fractals (think kaleidoscope) as a means to bridge understanding to what I mean.

You stated: “It is an example of how entitlement transforms religion into something evil.” Give me two examples of my entitlement as per this discourse (if you feel I have demonstrated such). Try not to add any character to my words.

Amina

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My response to you in in the designated section above (specified by your name).

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My response to you is above in the section with you name marked.

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You’re aware that you’re posting in an open thread, right?

Ah, so you also own a crystal ball!

And don’t forget, I am under no obligation to respond to you.

You didn’t refute anything, you just re-asserted your same points. Since you showed little sign of paying attention to anything but your own pride I saw no reason to comment until you blatantly contradicted the Gospel with some Gnostic “I earn gold stars” and bad Christology and YEC-style science fiction and other items unsustainable by the text.

Salvation is not earned. Jesus is not an extension of the Father. There are no ranks. And to claim symbolism you need to show that the genre in question utilizes it.

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As often I do agree with gotquestions, in context the cross means death : are you willing to accept the same consequence as Jesus, dying for your faith if the situation requires so.

It goes a bit further than daily obedience so to say.

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Yeah, it is more often seen as a symbol for the land of Israel, from which the Israelites were exiled.

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It is just plain observation. So many places on the earth are a very much a paradise, with everything you need in easy reach without having to do anything (and warm enough no clothes or shelter are needed). Of course many places are anything but a paradise, so when I say the Garden is the Earth, I mean when you have all the Earth to choose from – it is there. Though, things do change with climate and other natural disasters, so it is quite possible a particular location which was once a paradise can become quite inhospitable.

But the text tells us that it is in Mesopotamia, where much of the evidence suggests human civilization began.

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True, that is why I said “symbol”. If the story was written before the exile, the symbolic interpretation was added later. If it was written during the exile, it probably was intentional.

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That’s because Eden is/was the ideal where God’s human family was supposed to live, so Edenic language gets applied to the land God assigned Israel. It also gets applied to Jerusalem, to the Temple Mount, and to the Temple itself, and creatively applied to Babylon during the Exile – Babylon seeming a garden that wasn’t the Land, for example, which contrasted with the devastated Land they’d been taken from. The concept gets extended to the relationship between God and His people even apart from geography, with Edenic imagery applied to people and individuals living in allegiance to Yahweh.

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