You mean being a Christian is all about you getting the thumbs up from the Nazi at the end of the Auschwitz line? Your personal salvation and ■■■■ the rest in the cattle trucks?
That metaphor can be really mined can’t it. What would a real Christian, a real devotee of Jesus, be doing while in such a cattle truck? With their fellow sufferers? What point would they be making?
Turn before you burn? The second time forever and ever amen.
Why? We’ve already dealt with that. Jesus didn’t speak English and His historians wrote Greek, using words with metaphoric roots which have evolved up to when and since they were used. We are blind to the fact that our highly evolved language is still full of metaphor. Using cognitively biased inadequate translation as the basis for describing Love is foolish.
What others? As He let others butcher Him He forgave them. So the others which you imply are those between His band of a few hundred followers who all betrayed Him or ran away and His murderers. Oh yes and one thief of two. But all the others who had nothing to do with it; He didn’t lay down His life for them? They all burn forever and ever amen?
I much prefer a parsimonious, universal interpretation as I’m such a simpleton.
Is the cross of Jesus daily working His salvation in you?
The Gospel proclaims the good news that God has offered salvation to all (universal/catholic faith). He also makes requirements in that we repent, are baptized to symbolically accept the death of the carnal nature and grow into the nature of Christ through faith in Christ.
Universalists, in their enthusiasm, declare God’s unconditional love, and may mistakenly think requirements are not relevant. Infernalists make the mistake that God wants to punish sinners who do not repent, forever. Both of these ideas presuppose they know how God judges - only God knows that.
None of the ones I know do. The ones who have to accept the plain meaning of scripture.
Yes the plain meaning of scripture. You know the one that says you don’t have to repent to enter the Kingdom of heaven. The 1 that says you don’t have to believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess him as your Lord to be saved. The plain meaning of scripture the 1 that says there is no Lake of fire. The scripture that says the lamb has no wrath that there is no Justice in him no punishment no anger just a gooey love child. But wait! I didn’t think there was a plain meaning of scripture. I thought it was all parables, ANE fables, words of man, the babbling of an angry murderous God.
I guess I am presumptuous a bit also. I think there is another alternative between these extremes which makes more sense to me.
Your alternatives sounds so much like my own description of alternatives in above, so I wonder if you read them since you didn’t mention the third choice between.
It seems to me this is about the nature of love itself. Is love a means of power over others, or does it allow those you love to make their own choices and accepts them. I suppose that is better than a god dominated by wrath and vengeance, but it still doesn’t sound right to me. Likewise it seems to me that the best option is one which make the most sense of our experience of life and I don’t think either of these options does a good job at that.
Universalism requires a transcendental freedom while also believing that we are all slaves to sin and may be incapable of choosing God - they really on a type of purgatory to remove evil and ultimately be at one with God.
I think there is freedom in human existence that enables us to choose and accept responsibility. Those who accept the Gospel than turn to Christ as we cannot live perfectly even after repentance, so the Lord has mercy on us and we are saved by the eternal Grace of God.
From what I have read, universalist seem unhappy with this message - perhaps you may clarify. Why the insistence of salvation as unconditional in some manner?
Because that’s what it says on the tin.
While I find myself agreeing with many of your comments, I wonder why you need to elaborate on the Gospel message - certainly when we understand and believe, we are taught to live our lives based on the example set by Christ and His disciples, and accept our responsibility when we fall short. I do not see a middle ground, just Christ and His apostles showing us (teaching through the Gospel) how to be and live.
sounds tinni 
That got a laugh. Well played Sir.
Ah, so you are a universalist despite what you said.
What the ?.. perhaps you have exposed me as a universalist in sheep’s clothing. What should I do?.. 
I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. This is Good News. This is a Christian. But how do you know that Christ is in you? What signs are there that prove it?
Ps 9:19 Arise, O Lord, let not man triumph; let the nations be judged in your presence. 20 Strike them with terror , O Lord; let the nations know they are but men.
What is the Good News in contrast to? Why is being made safe from sin and Satan, Good News?
Zeph 2 Gather together, gather together, O shameful nation, 2 before the appointed time arrives and that day sweeps on like chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord comes upon you, before the day of the Lord’s wrath comes upon you. 3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.
Rev 6: 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, " Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Matt 25: 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The Good News is in contrast to the just anger, terror, wrath and condemning judgment of the Lord. Those who reject God remain under condemnation and wrath but those who repent, turn away from sin and turn to love and obedience to God will receive mercy. Mercy only comes through repentance and faith and from those comes obedience which is prompted by love.
God commands, requires, is owed and deserves our trust, love and obedience. Without it we are children of wrath, destined for eternal fire. The wicked will not inherit eternal life.
The Good News is that we can be made safe from God’s justified wrath, terror and condemnation. It is by dying and being raised up a New Creation in Christ Jesus, born again by the Fathers will. It is through the cross of Christ that He, who knew no sin, became sin for me, that I would become the righteousness of God in Him.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."
God’s wrath, terror and eternal fire, or God’s mercy, righteousness and eternal life.
Which will you chose?
I didn’t see any other reason for this no compromise response of yours… I mean what other conclusion is there if you say that anything but universalism is “infernalists make the mistake that God wants to punish sinners who do not want to repent, forever.” Or did you mean it when you said “I do not see a middle ground” or were referring to a middle ground between things you didn’t explain. ???puzzled???
Oh… wait a minute… maybe… The one thing both alternatives have in common is the absolutely controlling god who has to have it His way and only His way no matter what… He doesn’t want a relationship but just wants His dream to be as He dictates… so if anyone goes to hell then it must be because He wants them to go to hell. I guess that was a blind spot for me because I really couldn’t believe in a god like that. The control freak god has no interest or respect from me whatsoever.
There is strange miscommunication here. I am comparing (using brief statements) the two positions (universalism and infernalism) with the Gospel requirements for salvation: repentance, baptism, faith in Christ and the Grace of Almighty God. I am inferring that making requirements may go against the grain of universalism’s unconditional love, while grace and mercy from the Lord may go against the grain of infernilists.
I cannot fathom your insistence and repetition about some god who wants control and the illusion of power over others. The greatest power in heaven and earth is God’s Love for us as shown by His only begotten Son. So what is your hangup?
To a certain type of mind, not unique in its instantiation on this site, even if you agree with what they say, 100%, verbatim, you’re wrong.
Watch.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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