Hangup? Just trying to understand your claim there is no middle ground between universalism and infernalism.
It doesn’t make sense to me with what you say in your last post above. The fact that both of these (universalism and infernalism) go against some aspect of the gospel tells us that these are unworkable extremes. It only makes sense to say that the truth must be somewhere between these extremes. That is what a middle ground means.
I don’t agree that love is a means to power. Quite the contrary, there is no love without choice and means it requires giving power over to the one you love.
What a child of God would be doing in the cattle truck, is the same thing his Father did with Israel, in His dealings with them. At times after warning Israel to turn from sin or they would be judged, God would tell them, “Even now if you repent, I will hear your cries and deliver you. I will turn from my wrath and judgement that I have decreed and will show mercy. Why will you continue in your disobedience and be destroyed? Repent! And even now I will save you. For I would rather show mercy than judgment.” It is the Father’s good pleasure to show mercy and to save all who call on Him. He will even now deliver anyone who repents and puts all their trust in Him. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
Not if people don’t want it. Without choice it isn’t love. After all that is why evil exists. That is the answer to the Epicurus’ argument. If God didn’t want love then evil wouldn’t exist – His power would be the answer to everything. But when love is what you are after then it cannot be just about you and what you want. There can be no love without putting power into the hands of another person, to at least say yes or no. So the reality is that love is the opposite of power – its negation and sacrifice.
It is true that some people, probably with some vestige of humanity left, will be changed by the offer of love – but only because they choose that love. We are often so perverse we only change when we see the innocent suffering because our own actions. And Christ on the cross is an example of that. But again that is a choice.
Frankly, too often we see people using the word “love” in rhetoric when it is all about power and forcing their will on other people. This is often Christianity at its worst. When you are all about lording it over others, just using the word love doesn’t change anything. It is like the way a mafia godfather uses the word “love” also. This is what comes of confusing love and power.
Yes, love is the greatest. And that is why God chose love and freedom over power and control. That is a God I can respect. I cannot respect a god who clings to power the way a lot of Christian theology has God doing. But being great doesn’t make it power, any more than being a servant of servants is power. That Jesus says is what you must be if you would be great. But it is the opposite of power.
God exerts absolute power and control according to His will. It is He who has the power of life and death. If He allows a man to continue in sin without immediate judgment or if He exacts immediate judgement, it is done according to His will, authority and power. He blesses according to His will and power also. By His authority and power He will destroy and recreate this present creation and none can oppose Him. By His authority and power He will condemn to the Lake of Fire, those who continue in wickedness and none will be able to stop Him. Even though He gives mankind the choice to love Him or reject Him, it is through His authority and absolute power that He will judge all of mankind. If you reject His authority, He will by His absolute power cast you out from His presence and you will not be able to resist. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.
I struggle to see an argument? It is self evident that tyrants, psychopaths’ etc may claim they do evil out of love, but this is deceit. Yet you rile against this constantly.
Yep! Phillipians 2:6-8 one of my favorite passages in the Bible. The whole point here is that I do not believe God clings to power and control but readily chooses love and freedom over these especially when He became a helpless human infant to live among us. It is not God who seeks and clings to power but rather men such as those seeking to use religion for their own gain. And thus as I said in the other thread, this is a way we can distinguish what is from God from what is from men.
That is not what we read in Job or many other parts of the Bible. He can exert absolute power and control, sure! But He does not. He lets us decide what we will do – to choose between life or death. That is our choice. But no, He will not change the rules to suit our irrational desires. He created the laws of nature and spirit for a reason. So we cannot bargain our way out of the basic rules of life, physical or spiritual. The first is the essence of life and the second is the essence of love.
And His will is for a relationship of love… which requires choice.
There is nothing wrong with His original creation. The only problem is man. That is the only thing which requires any recreation. But we are the keystone. And so by changing us, He changes everything.
Yes in Romans it is explained that God will give those who choose up to their own passions. And that is lake of fire which will destroy them.
This obsession with empty and arbitrary authority is the weakness of evil human beings, desiring power without the wisdom to use it meaningfully. But God’s real authority is His completely accurate understanding and knowledge of the way things really are. There is no escape from the consequences of sin because these are the product of sin itself and not the product a power hungry soul destroying monster which religionists invent and worship in the place of God to bolster their own feeling of importance.
The devil and mafia bosses rule by fear. And it is very true that in their eyes the only wisdom and virtue is craven cowardice crawling to their will. Is this the god you worship? Such is the misuse and misunderstanding of scripture. The fear of the Lord IS the beginning of wisdom, but not because God rules by fear like the devil and mafia bosses. The rule of God is love. But that love is guided by wisdom and a knowledge of reality which cannot be changed. Thus for sinful human beings who habitually live by manipulating others, this is indeed a cause for fear, because God cannot be bought, or manipulated, and for the most part He cannot be bargained with – no more than you can bargain with your doctor over the required method of treatment. No amount of bargaining can change the doctor’s knowledge of what is required to treat your illness.
So it is true that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But love of the Lord is the maturation of wisdom. If it stops with fear then you are in danger of the same fate as the slothful servant in Matthew 25, who buried what was given Him and returned it the same way.
Jesus shows his desire for his Father’s exaltation and sets the example for us in the very first petition of the Lord’s Prayer, “Hallowed be thy name!”, so I’m not sure where the problem is.
My message in this thread has been that there is middle ground be the vengeful god of infernalism and the Hakuna matata god of universalism in the God who chose love and freedom over power and control. It is only natural that Phillipians 2:6-8 would be one of the first passages I would quote in support of this.
I have little doubt my understanding of the sovereignty and providence of God is not the same as yours.
If you want me to explains something I said, then you need to quote or link what it is you want me to explain. Apparently your vague misunderstandings of me are the phantoms you are chasing at this moment. And since these only exist in your own mind then you can hardly expect me to do anything about them.
Why did you quote Phillipians 2:6-8? Was that a misunderstanding?
Mitchell, do you believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus does anything actually spiritually (magical) in a person. Do they literally become born of God, become a real new creation when they repent and fully trust in Jesus? Does His act on the cross and His resurrection cause their spirit to die and become actually united to Him, in contrast to just the person changing their attitude? Does a person actually get born again? Now, in this lifetime.
