Was Abraham Father of the Jews or of Humanity?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@riversea

Remember Brit Shalom keeps baby intact approved by Rabbi and not cut off from covenant and is a Jew

That would be yet another question for @beaglelady @Bill_II. What is essential and what is not?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Yet there will still be a tenth portion in it,
And it will again be subject to burning,
Like a terebinth or an oak
Whose stump remains when it is cut down.
The holy seed is its stump

The tenth remaining would again be subject to burning. We do not know what will be the state then. Will all of the tenth be burnt or some will remain? I agree that both interpretations are possible. My case is that we are degrading Abraham for political purposes by considering the bequeathal to his biological descendants.
Further, please explain how descendants of a Jewish woman from non-Jewish father can be considered as born from zera of Abraham? How can convertsbe considered as born from zera of Abraham?

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

What is essential and what is not?

You are asking the wrong people. Ask a rabbi.

@bharatjj

My case is that we are degrading Abraham for political purposes by considering the bequeathal to his biological descendants.

Sorry but that is what Genesis says. No political purpose was implied. I tend to go by what God says and not what I want it to say.

@bharatjj

We cannot claim the land of Canaan on the grounds of bequeathal to the seed of Abraham; and then bequeath it to those not born from the seed of Abraham.

So you agree that Canaan was given to the biological seed of Abraham you just oppose giving it to those NOT born from the seed of Abraham. I think we are making progress here. Would you agree that based on DNA testing there are still biological descendants of Abraham? If someone passes the DNA test can they lay claim to the land?

Edit to add, using your commentary.

The last clause is an interpolation, wanting in the LXX., and with its omission it undoubtedly becomes possible to understand the figure of the verse as a sentence of final rejection

So here Skinner appears to agree with you, but (and it is a big one). And I have seen similar statements in the commentary of people who don’t accept the idea of the remnant.

but the first explanation (see above quote) excludes Isaiah’s characteristic doctrine of the Remnant

Basically he is saying that while it is possible to make this interpretation it doesn’t hold up when you consider Isaiah’s basic understanding. If you likewise want to throw out the idea of the Remnant of Israel you are certainly free to do so.

@bharatjj

Further, please explain how descendants of a Jewish woman from non-Jewish father can be considered as born from zera of Abraham? How can convertsbe considered as born from zera of Abraham?

And this is just a rabbit hole that doesn’t fit the question in the OP.

[beaglelady]

@bharatjj

Maybe.

So maybe the Jews should be able to determine who is a Jew. Maybe, maybe not?

[beaglelady]

@riversea

A list of Rabbis and other Jewish leaders who perform a bris, without circumcision has grown to record numbers. Over 215 officiants are now available, all over the world, to perform the peaceful welcoming event for Jewish parents.

If you want to you can read more from that website

You need to realize that in all my time at BioLogos I have only encountered one Jewish participant. (And zero Jewish guest posts.) Therefore, if you don’t want Jews to circumcise their baby sons, you need to get on Jewish discussion forums or talk to rabbis. But don’t expect anybody to listen to you, because they are tired of outsiders telling them how to practice their faith.

[riversea]

Isaac has half siblings

[beaglelady]

@riversea

According to @Terry_Sampson if Jews aren’t circumcised then these Jews are cut off from the covenant. Is that @Terry_Sampson telling others how to do their faith?

All I’m saying is that if you want to reach Jews, this is not the forum for it.

[riversea]

Isaac was born and Isaac parents were Abraham and Sarah

[beaglelady]

Fascinating…

[riversea]

Sarah was old when Sarah had Isaac

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Sorry but that is what Genesis says. No political purpose was implied. I tend to go by what God says and not what I want it to say.

I honor your sentiments. But we necessarily have to apply our own minds to discover what God said.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

So you agree that Canaan was given to the biological seed of Abraham you just oppose giving it to those NOT born from the seed of Abraham. I think we are making progress here. Would you agree that based on DNA testing there are still biological descendants of Abraham?

No no. That is not the point. The point is that if Jews claim that the biological descendants inherited the land then as per their own statement they should not bequeath the land to those converted or those born from Jewish mothers and non.Jewish fathers. This contradiction means that the claim of Canaan is not divinely ordained. It is mere politics.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@beaglelady

I think that the Jews should the ones to determine who is a Jew.

You have the wrong starting point. If I am am a Jew then I also determine for others? No. We have to test the claim on the requirements set in the Bible. Pl know that the Islamic Sunna is based on tradition being greater than theology with disastrous results. Same here then.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

@bharatjj

Further, please explain how descendants of a Jewish woman from non-Jewish father can be considered as born from zera of Abraham? How can convertsbe considered as born from zera of Abraham?

And this is just a rabbit hole that doesn’t fit the question in the OP.

Not a misfit. The OP was zera. This question defines zera. Can zera be passed through women?

[beaglelady]

@bharatjj

You have the wrong starting point.

I really don’t care what you think about the matter.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

But we necessarily have to apply our own minds to discover what God said.

The Abrahamic Covenant is short. It isn’t hard to understand.

@bharatjj

The point is that if Jews claim that the biological descendants inherited the land then as per their own statement they should not bequeath the land to those converted or those born from Jewish mothers and non.Jewish fathers.

First you need to read up on the Abrahamic Covenant and you will discover it is God that has promised the land to the Jews.

Second since the Jews are not the ones who are bequeathing the land what does it matter if they say something different? There are still biological Jews alive today and they would still have a claim to the land per the original unconditional covenant. Or do you think that at some point all of the descendants of Abraham were exterminated? And if you do when did that happen?

@bharatjj

It is mere politics.

That is the opinion of a rather large religious group, but it requires you to throw out the Bible.

[beaglelady]

@Bill_II

There are still biological Jews alive today and they would still have a claim to the land per the original unconditional covenant.

Right you are! And any Jewish person (either by birth or conversion) from anywhere in the world is welcome to emigrate to Israel according to the Law of Return. They can also obtain Israeli citizenship. It’s called Making Aliyah.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

Can zera be passed through women?

Actually I would say yes. When Genesis was written it was believed men provided a complete seed and women just provided a place for that seed to grow. We now know that men and women both provide the DNA that goes into a child. So biologically speaking a woman should be considered equally with the man when you are talking about a biological inheritance.

[riversea]

Abraham and Sarah had a son name Isaac

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

@bharatjj

It is mere politics.

That is the opinion of a rather large religious group, but it requires you to throw out the Bible.

I feel we are talking at each other rather than to each other. We are also saying nothing new. Time to rest. Only, please know, that my theory will actually establish the historicity of the Bible.