Here is a pic of the similarity of the sign for “h” in Harappan and Semitic languages c. 1500 BCE. This is from S R Rao a marine archaeologist.
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Thank you for drawing my attention to the word Zera (Strongs 02233) again. I had relied on the NetBible definition (https://classic.net.bible.org/strong.php?id=02233):
- seed, sowing, offspring
1a) a sowing
1b) seed
1c) semen virile
1d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
1e) of moral quality
1e1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
1f) sowing time (by meton)
I had relied on 1e and 1e1. Now, thanks to you, I did more study. The word Zera is very frequently used in the sense of grain, seed or agricultural crop (For example in Deut 14:22, Job 39:12, Lev. 11:37, 27:16, Num. 11:7, etc.) Thus, it may denote a generation-to-generation descent and not necessarily a biological father-to-son descent. But this is still not conclusive because the descent is still physical.
The case for Zera as a moral descendant gets strength from Isaiah 6:13: “But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed [Zera] shall be the substance thereof.”
The context is that the Jews shall be destroyed but the “holy seed” shall return. There are a number of commentaries but [Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges](file:///E:/commentaries/cambridge/isaiah/6.htm) appears to be most explicit: “13. The verse reads: And should there still be in it a tenth, It must again pass through the fire, Like the terebinth and like the oak, To which a stump (remains) when they are felled; A holy seed is the stump thereof.” The last clause is wanting in the LXX., and with its omission it undoubtedly becomes possible to understand the figure of the verse as a sentence of final rejection; not only will the tree be cut down, but its stump will be destroyed by fire. The usual interpretation (which there is no reason to abandon) is: As the terebinth and oak when cut down retain the principle of vitality in their roots, which will again spring up into a great tree (cf. [Job 14:7](file:///E:/job/14-7.htm) ff.), so the ruined Israel contains the indestructible germ of the future kingdom of God, the “holy seed” is wrapped up in it. The difference is not material, since in any view Isaiah speaks of an extermination of the actually existing people but the first explanation excludes Isaiah’s characteristic doctrine of the Remnant, which we should certainly expect to find in his inaugural vision.”
I understand this to mean that the Jews will biologically be exterminated but the moral seed [Zera] will return. Here Zera is used for moral descendants.
It seems the Christians understand Zera in Isaiah 6:13 as Messiah: “Some, interpreting the passage of the Babylonish captivity, by the “holy seed” understand the Messiah,” for example, (Isaiah 6:13 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary).
Other verses may support this interpretation.
Isaiah 43:5: “Don’t be afraid, for I am with you. From the east I will bring your descendants; from the west I will gather you.” Here, if we place east and west on the same footing, then the eastern Zera are placed at the same level as the western people generally.
Leviticus 19:20: “When a man has sexual intercourse [Zera] with a woman, although she is a slave woman designated for another man and she has not yet been ransomed, or freedom has not been granted to her, there will be an obligation to pay compensation.” Here Zera refers to sexual intercourse without necessarily leading to conception and to the birth of descendants. This again appears to be closer to a moral action.
Psalm 22:30: “A whole generation [Zera] will serve him; they will tell the next generation about the sovereign Lord.” The word generation may refer to a generation generally and not necessarily to a biological family.
I am not saying that Zera can ONLY mean moral descendants. The larger use is certainly in the sense of biological descendant. However, to me that is repugnant in the context of bequeathal of the land. How could One God possibly favour one moral family over another equally moral people?
Thus, I think there exists a case to bequeath the land to moral believers.
Given the Jews have yet to be exterminated (which is actually a rather abhorrent thing to imply given their history), when you do expect this to happen?
Because God is God and no one can know the mind of God. Given the total story told in the OT the Jews are a Chosen People with whom God made an everlasting covenant. You don’t like it. That is obvious, but then again your opinion doesn’t matter.
Yes you do tend to grab the definition that suites your purpose. However, as the word is used in the NET translation that definition doesn’t seem to apply.
I see nothing in the actual usage that would say it was ever used for “moral quality”.
Isaiah 6.13. You have not responded. How is christ zera of abraham? Also to all the other arguments. Also that converted Jews are not zera. Also, Jews descended from a Jewish mother are not automatically zera of abraham. Also, self proclamation cannot be taken at face value. The bottom line is that Jews are persecuted because of this misunderstanding. And, thanks for making me think more.
That is true. Being Jewish is a high calling, and also a burden.
Such a repugnant idea!
From the Jewish Study Bible
This verse is talking about a Jewish remnant, i.e. biological descendents, who will repent and rebuild the nation. And you can cherry pick verses all you want and try to make them say something that they don’t. I go by what the OT says overall.
Jesus was a descendent of King David so He would certainly be considered the seed of Abraham.
I thought you said Jews had been exterminated. How then are they persecuted? You need to get your story straight. And no this has nothing to do with their persecution. You sometimes sound like you approve of their persecution.
Not my idea, my dear, at all. That is what Isaiah said. Pl read my post again. I quoted Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges “13. The verse reads: And should there still be in it a tenth, It must again pass through the fire, Like the terebinth and like the oak, To which a stump (remains) when they are felled; A holy seed is the stump thereof.” The last clause is wanting in the LXX., and with its omission it undoubtedly becomes possible to understand the figure of the verse as a sentence of final rejection; not only will the tree be cut down, but its stump will be destroyed by fire.
I apologize for using the word exterminated instead of destroyed. I repeat I am fond of the jews. I am searching for the cause of their persecution.
I only quoted Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges “13. The verse reads: And should there still be in it a tenth, It must again pass through the fire, Like the terebinth and like the oak, To which a stump (remains) when they are felled; A holy seed is the stump thereof.” The last clause is wanting in the LXX., and with its omission it undoubtedly becomes possible to understand the figure of the verse as a sentence of final rejection; not only will the tree be cut down, but its stump will be destroyed by fire.
Yes there are multiple interpretations. I am not here to decide which is correct. I am only saying that the idea that land was bequeathed by god tovthe jews does not hold theologically. Plus there are problems of naturalized jews who are NOT zera. Plus, descent from mother. God did not bequeath land to descendants of Rachel.
Please don’t get me wrong. We need to solve the problem of persecution. It is the pain of theoLogical surgery so that we all come to God.
It is like a bystander telling the doctor that the doctor approves of the disease. Nothing like that. I am proposing a theological surgery.
I thought mary was virgin.
So where does Isaiah say the Jews will be exterminated? What is the verse?
(btw, please don’t call me “my dear”)
Pretty sure Mary was a Jew and didn’t you say having a Jewish mother made you a Jew?
And you never answered my question on when you think the Jews were exterminated.
Edit to add:
We are told that Joseph made the appropriate sacrifice required for the first born son so His parents certainly considered Him Jewish.
Pl see carefully. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges “13. The verse reads: And should there still be in it a tenth, It must again pass through the fire, Like the terebinth and like the oak, To which a stump (remains) when they are felled; A holy seed is the stump thereof.” The last clause is wanting in the LXX., and with its omission it undoubtedly becomes possible to understand the figure of the verse as a sentence of final rejection; not only will the tree be cut down, but its stump will be destroyed by fire.
The destroying of the stump is the destruction of the Jews.
Why can’t you simply tell me the verse in Isaiah you are talking about? What is the problem? Just the reference. You don’t have to type anything else. I’d like to look it up in my own Bible.
I have no issues with Mary being a jew. The bequeathal of Canaan was to the seed of abraham and jacob. Seed is same as semen. So if a Jewish father A begets a daughter B, then B is Jewish. But when non.jewish man C begets a child from Jewish B, then the child D is not born from the seed of jacob and would not be entitled to bequeathal. The Jewish tradition of reckoning from mothers thus cancels the bequeathal.
The same holds for converts. They are not born from the seed of jacob.
Please do tell me if I am wrong.
I never said that. I was only quoting Isaiah.
My concern is that the Jewish heritage has a theological content of one god that I like and honor and thus I consider myself to be a jew. however, the heritage also has a political content of exclusivity and bequeathal of Canaan that I find does NOT hold. So I would like the Jews to embrace the former and jettison the latter.
The same idea of exclusivity has then been carried into christianity and islam. Hence we have the strange spectacle of moral descendants of abraham killing each other. I am trying to deal with this problem. Jews are good. Jews are friends. I am a jew.
6.13 Please see cambridge commentary in particular.
And what makes you think you are Jewish?
The last part of verse 13 is textually uncertain. But we know that Jews were not wiped out. And they are in the afterlife as well.