Was Abraham Father of the Jews or of Humanity?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@bharatjj

@Dale

Paul certainly did not believe that he had the same filial relationship to God before his conversion as after.

True. But did he ever say that he was NOT son of God before conversion?

 

So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.
Romans 9:8

we were by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:3

sons of disobedience
Ephesians 5:6

It’s more than implicit, don’t you think?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@bharatjj

Mu focus at present is the Torah.

You are talking to Christians about the Torah. How they interpret it is based on the New Testament.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

@Terry_Sampson

you acknowledge that Jesus died as the result of his crucifixion–as any true Christian would–and that the same Jesus dd not die as the result of a crucifixion–as any true Muslim would.

I do not recall even having discussed this.

• It will take a bit of effort to do, but I think “a trip down Memory Lane” may refresh your memory.
• Ahh, … here the beginning is. Elsewhere, I posted to you:
  • "What I find questionable, to say the least, in your continued assertion that YHWH and Allah are the same entity. is the fact that–although orthodox Jews will deny that YHWH sent Jesus–there is no evidence that I have ever seen suggesting that YHWH denied or denies that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. Allah, however, in Surah 4:157 of the Qur’an, says: “…and for their saying, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God”—though they did not slay him; nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them. Those who differ concerning him are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge of it, but follow only conjecture; they slew him not for certain.”
    So how does that work? Christian scripture affirms that Jesus was crucified, placed in a tomb, and resurrected soon thereafter and Allah denies the crucifixion. In what world are P and ~P both true?
• You responded:
  • BJ: “I admit this is the first time I have read this Ayat in detail. This is my very preliminary response. I understand that there are differences among Christians as to whether Christ resurrected or not. Perhaps, the Quran is speaking of the resurrected Christ. In that case he was not slain. I would like to take time to respond on this one.”.
• And I asked you: “You say you love Jesus, and I have to ask: which one? The one who was crucified or the one who was not.”
• And you responded:
  • BJ: Tentative response: Both.
• Coming back to you now?
  • If not, I’ll restate the matter at issue for you to reflect on and try to respond to once more:
    • On this matter, Christians and Muslims agree. If you, personally, do not: you’re “odd man out”, so to speak.
    • “Since Jesus’s resurrection is the foundation of the Christian faith and is an event denied by Islam’s holy Scripture called the Qur’an, both Muslims and Christians can agree upon two things: (1) If Jesus did not rise from the dead, Christianity is false, and (2) if Jesus was resurrected, Christianity is true and Islam is false."

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@beaglelady

How does this explain the Holocaust

The Holocaust was continuation of the many persecutions of the Jews over the last 3000 years for the reasons explained above. The theme was the same. Actors changed.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Dale

You would not be asking a lot of your questions if you did.

What questions?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Terry_Sampson

Jesus’s resurrection is the foundation of the Christian faith

This is debatable. Love seems to me to be the foundation. We will need to specify an agreed parameter on which to determine what is foundation .

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Dale

You are talking to Christians about the Torah. How they interpret it is based on the New Testament

No problem. So tell me why my interpretation is incorrect.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@bharatjj

What questions?

Good grief.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

J23: I don’t think Muslims believe Allah is a trickster.

I was told this by a Muslim so I take his word over yours. It is actually a large part of their theology.

@bharatjj

So, coming to the matter of Abraham, the word Zera has to be understood in the context of love of all humankind first; and biological descendants later

And you still don’t understand it is both at the same time. Land for biological descendants and then blessings his spiritual descendants.

@bharatjj

J24: I am NOT fixed on land, please.

SMH. you aren’t fixated on the land, but the problem is the Promised Land.

@bharatjj

J25: Please give the verses where the “Apostles certainly believed the land was promised to the Hebrews.” Maybe I missed this earlier.

You did and I don’t have the time to repeat that work, but it comes from my reading and understanding of the NT. If it didn’t make an impression the first time why would this time be any different? To be honest there is much of what I say that doesn’t seem to make any impression.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

Jesus matter I have not discussed.

• You sort of did and didn’t.
  • You’ve said you “love Jesus”; and I asked you which one? The one whom Christians say was crucified, died, buried, and raised from the dead? Or the one whom Allah himself said in the Qur’an, was neither killed nor crucified? And you said: Tentative answer: Both."
  • You show little regard for “the law of Non-contradiction” when you answer–even tentatively–“Both.”
  • Granted, you haven’t discussed “Jesus matter”, whatever that is. But you clearly and definitely expressed a very unusual opinion when you affirmed that you love" the crucified and “never crucified” Jesus. Whether you like it or not: you only have three options:
  • You agree with Christians that Jesus was crucified and died as the result of that crucifixion;
  • You agree with Muslims and deny that Jesus died as the result of his crucifixion; or
  • You agree with Jews and atheists who say that they don’t care.
  • I suppose you could, in spite, of the information available, claim that you don’t know and, therefore, don’t have an opinion.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@bharatjj

No problem. So tell me why my interpretation is incorrect.

 

@bharatjj

@Dale

Paul certainly did not believe that he had the same filial relationship to God before his conversion as after.

True. But did he ever say that he was NOT son of God before conversion?

 

So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.
Romans 9:8

we were by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:3

sons of disobedience
Ephesians 5:6

It’s more than implicit, don’t you think?

 
Any more of this is pointless. Actually, it’s been pointless a long time now, hasn’t it.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

This is debatable. Love seems to me to be the foundation. We will need to specify an agreed parameter on which to determine what is foundation .

Biologos Forum gives substantially great latitude to the people they let in the door, … far more than I would, to be sure. So I’m not sure who you include in your “We”, but that group certainly does not include me. Good luck trying to find them. You might have better results if you check into www.religiousforums.com.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@bharatjj

This conversation has been a learning experience for me

Largely not, in obvious fact.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

J25: Please give the verses where the “Apostles certainly believed the land was promised to the Hebrews.” Maybe I missed this earlier.

You did and I don’t have the time to repeat that work, but it comes from my reading and understanding of the NT.

Edit to add:
Here is one example.
Acts 7:5 But He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot of ground, and yet, He promised that He would give it to him as a possession, and to his descendants after him, even though he had no child.

Hard to see how “a foot of ground” could be considered to be trading rights.

[beaglelady]

@bharatjj

The Holocaust was continuation of the many persecutions of the Jews over the last 3000 years for the reasons explained above. The theme was the same. Actors changed.

That is repugnant! There was some Christian complicity, but the holocaust came from Hitler and the Nazis. Many Christians died fighting the Nazis.

Since Jews were persecuted for 3000 years, who did the persecuting for the first 1000 years?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@bharatjj

True. But did he ever say that he was NOT son of God before conversion?

Please reply to this.

sons of disobedience
Ephesians 5:6

These quotes draw from Adam’s sin. Traditionally, it is thought that Adam sinned and Jesus saved. I am fully in tune with Christ as savior. But I do not think it is necessary to vilify humankind as sinners as done in the above quotes given by you. A much more positive understanding is possible. I am giving below my take on Romans 5 to explain my view. I must admit that I have not had the time to study the three verses you have provided. Will do if required.
We give our interpretation of Romans 5:12-15 in this perspective:

NKJV: Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (Rom. 5:12).

We understand this verse to say that independent thinking entered the world though Adam and led to severing the live connection with God. The independent thinking then spread to all humankind. All used their independent thinking, in part, at least, not aligned with God hence all sinned.

NKJV: For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (Rom. 5:13).

We understand this verse to say that the capacity of independent thinking was in the world after Adam and Eve were commanded to eat and not devour of the Trees of Knowledge and Life. But the attempt of devouring the Tree of Life was made later. Humankind did no sin until they attempted to devour the Tree of Life.

NKJV: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come (Rom. 5:14).

We understand this verse to say that humankind used its capacity of independent thinking sometimes, at least, not aligned with God hence separation with God reigned from Adam to Moses. Those who may not have sinned like the devouring of the Tree of Life were yet severed with the live connection with God due to their independent thinking. Jesus is like Adam before he ate of the Tree of Knowledge and was in connection with God.

NKJV: But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many (Rom. 5:15).

We understand this verse to say that the offense of Adam led to the severing of the connection with God in many. The grace of God in Christ abounded to many more.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Terry_Sampson

Biologos Forum gives substantially great latitude to the people they let in the door,

Thank you biologos.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Acts 7:5 But He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot of ground, and yet, He promised that He would give it to him as a possession, and to his descendants after him, even though he had no child.

The key word here is descendants “sperma.” As I mentioned previously, this may be read as “2c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power
2c1) of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the
soul by which we are regenerated.”
AS for land, the verse uses the word inheritance without specifying land or trading rights.
Thx

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@beaglelady

but the holocaust came from Hitler and the Nazis. Many Christians died fighting the Nazis.

HItler too was a Christian: " The evidence that Hitler was a staunch Christian is overwhelming. He banned secular education in Germany on the basis that Christian religious instruction is essential to moral development, repeatedly vilified atheism, and although he often clashed with Catholic bishops over his ill-treatment of Jews, Hitler did not perceive himself as being anti-Christian, but rather as bringing the Church back to what he saw as its proper, traditional role in persecuting the pestilent. While negotiating the Reichskonkordat , Hitler said to Bishop Berning that suppressing Jews was, “doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.” Hitler’s Christianity | Chris Lawson | Inference.

But hold on. I am not accusing Christians for the Holocaust. I admire the Christians for their love of the poor. That said, aberrations are always there. So let us not quibble on the basis of this or that example. Let us focus on the issue: Was Abraham the SPIRITUAL FATHER OF HUMANITY; or the political father of his biological descendants. Let us avoid tangents, please.

At the cost of repetition, please know that I was shaken by Schindlers List.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@beaglelady

Since Jews were persecuted for 3000 years, who did the persecuting for the first 1000 years?

The idea of exclusivity is embedded in the Exodus narrative when the Jews warred with many due to their belief that they had a divine right to do so. The Exile was one logical culmination of this ideology.