Was Abraham Father of the Jews or of Humanity?

Faith & Science Conversation
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The purpose of this post is not to change the mind of the OP’s author, but to draw the attention of the curious and innocent, casual reader who thinks he or she has found a ‘treasure trove’ of truth and/or useful information in the unusual opinions of the OP’s author. Abandon that hope, all ye who read this thread.

  • The OP’s author wrote:
  • As I showed Bharat in my reply to his post (# 389)
    • You sort of did and didn’t.
      • You’ve said you “love Jesus”; and I asked you which one? The one whom Christians say was crucified, died, buried, and raised from the dead? Or the one whom Allah himself said in the Qur’an, was neither killed nor crucified? And you said : Tentative answer: Both."
      • You show little regard for “the law of Non-contradiction” when you answer–even tentatively–“Both.”
      • Granted, you haven’t discussed “Jesus matter”, whatever that is. But you clearly and definitely expressed a very unusual opinion when you affirmed that you love" the crucified and “never crucified” Jesus . Whether you like it or not: you only have three options:
        • You agree with Christians that Jesus was crucified and died as the result of that crucifixion;
        • You agree with Muslims and deny that Jesus died as the result of his crucifixion; or
        • You agree with Jews and atheists who say that they don’t care.
        • I suppose you could, in spite, of the information available, claim that you don’t know and, therefore, don’t have an opinion.
  • Bharat appears be confused and fails to realize that his previous claim: that YHWH and Allah are the same “God” and the claim that he simultaneously "loves “the Christians’ Jesus who was crucified and died as a result of that crucifixion” and “the Muslims’ Jesus who was neither crucified nor died as a result of that crucifixion” are “blanket statements” And I reject both of his claims.
    • As for his first claim: “that YHWH and Allah” are the same “God”, I reject it–at the risk of being incorrectly called an “Islamophobe”–because:
      • In Exodus 3:6. when Moses first encounters YHWH/, face-to-face, as it were: YHWH tells Moses: "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God…
        • A Jew would know that verse; a Christian should know that verse; and a Muslim would–I think–find that a strange thing to tell Muhammad.
        • The likelihood of Allah telling Muhammad that that’s what he told Moses, is 0 (zero) %.
  • In response to my rejection of Bharat’s claim: “that Moses led the first people of the Exodus out of the Indus Valley”, Bharat wrote:
  • The evidences consist of re-locating geographical locations and events, recorded in Exodus, to the Indus Valley and other locations, in effect: changing Biblical geographical locations and rewriting Exodus. Rather than present his opinions to a Jew-filled forum, he continues to evoke contention in Biologos with it/them.
    • In all likelihood, a Jew, especially one who is a citizen of the modern state of Israel, would reject his theory. Moreover, Christians and Muslims would probably do so, too.
    • Here, I share a definitely-Jewish perspective: Red Sea or Reed Sea: Where is Mount Sinai?.
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  • He did and He didn’t.
  • He didn’t if you mean that you don’t think he did and that you don’t want to take a follower AND New Testament author’s claim that He did.
  • On the other hand, if you check in your Bible, you should be able to find: John 14:6.
    • “Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
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Is there a reason why you equate Elohim and Yahweh when, in fact, the Old Testament may show Elohim OR YHWH OR both, as in YHWH Elohim. Oh wait, I see now: Because if you didn’t equate Elohim and YHWH, your claim that both equate to Allah would fall apart, and you would have to back away from your claim that YHWH and Allah refer to the same “God”. Makes sense to me. :rofl:

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False!

Hitler was neither a Christian nor an atheist. He had his own unique beliefs

But hold on. Yes you are.

Right, and only Jews wanted to engage in warfare in the ancient world.

404

bha, do you realize that on this forum we have no control over the Abrahamic faiths that you mercilessly disparage and want to change? If you want changes you need to go to the leadership of the three faiths. You might start in Rome with the Pope. You could have him call for another church council–Vatican III, which you could address.

After all, if I wanted to stop Hindus from drinking cow urine I would go to India.

405

Ok then define a foot of trading rights. Interestingly enough, another translation is a footprint on the ground which is even harder to apply to trading rights. Context matters.

And since you like to throw out the Net Bible definitions can you explain how those definitions are meant to be used? I can find nothing on their web site that explains them. Just because a word can be translated in a certain way doesn’t mean the Greek should be translated that way when it is used.

406

The problem is bharatjj, like all good Muslims, believes the Jews and Christians and modified their Holy Scriptures for political reasons. Given this assumption, his conclusions automatically follow.

407
  • Bharat is no Muslim. No true Muslim would claim to be a Jew. No true Muslim would equate Abraham and Rama, a major deity in Hinduism and the seventh and one of the most popular avatars of Vishnu, who is considered THE Supreme Being in Rama-centric traditions of Hinduism. No true Muslim would think of suggesting that Rama had a son named S-m-l and, together, Rama and “S-m-l” built the Ka’abah in some God-forsaken place in India as evidence of his submission to Allah. No true Muslim would equate Moses and Krishna and suggest that Krishna-as-Moses led Rama’s "chosen people* out of the Indus Valley all the way to southern Canaan.
  • Bharat’s just a nice guy, who knowingly or unknowingly, is simply trying to interpret the Bible and rewrite history to promote the unity of all humanity under a monotheistic Universal Consciousness that he calls “God”; and to do so, he has to take Indian threads and weave a new cloth to attract an audience. He’s kind of like a 21st century Baha’ullah trying to replace and unite Christianity, Islam, Judaism, AND Baha’ism under one banner.
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I know that and perhaps was unclear. He uses the same arguments as a Muslim co-worker of mine so he argues, partially, as any good Muslim would.

Pretty sure that he is knowingly trying to reinterpret the Bible.

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No thanks.  

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And mistranslate it

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Abraham sees ground

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Except we only have the words of Jesus recorded in Greek. The Greek words used are ego, G1473, and emou, G1700. Sorry but no inner I. If somebody wants to translate into Hebrew they are certainly free to do so, but that doesn’t mean Jesus said it.

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I’m rather confused. So Yaquab is a Jew living in Israel, then he hears a Sufi (Muslim mystic) reading
the words of Jesus. Please explain.

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What is the probability that neither YHWH nor Allah knew that Abraham was actually Rama, the seventh avatar of Vishnu, or that Moses was actually Krishna, the eighth incarnation of Vishnu?

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I am giving response to this point here. I will respond to others ASAP.

One, Fundamental vs superficial

Assuming for a moment that there is an irreconcilable difference between Islam and Christianity on the crucifixion of Jesus, can we deduce from this that Yahweh is not the same as Allah. This requires assessing what is primary and what is secondary in the theology. For example, we cannot conclude that the God of Unitarians is different than God of Trinitarians because of their different beliefs on this point.

It seems that Quran accepts Jesus as Messiah and his immaculate birth. In order to establish that Yahweh is different than Allah, then, we need to show that Messiah and immaculate birth are secondary and crucifixion is primary. Please take me through this.

Let us know that the Quran is silent on Resurrection while it denies Crucifixion. There is no denial of Resurrection in the Quran.

Two, God is infinite

If God is Infinite; then how can Allah be outside Yahweh; or Yahweh outside Allah?

Denial of Crucifixion in Christian Sects

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Basilides

Three, Basilides (early second century) was a Gnostic Christian religious teacher in Alexandria, Egypt.

To deliver humans from the power of the angelic beings who created the visible world, the Unborn and Nameless Father sent his first-born, Nous (known to history as the Christ). Christ seemed to be a man and to have performed miracles, but he was actually beyond all association with the physical body. Indeed, it was not Christ who suffered, but rather Simon of Cyrene, who was constrained to carry the cross for him, assumed Jesus’ form, and was crucified in Christ’s place. As Simon was crucified, Jesus returned to His Father, laughing at those who mourned his suffering. Through gnosis (knowledge) of Christ, the souls of men are saved, but their bodies perish. Thus, there is no such thing as physical resurrection, for the flesh is beyond redemption and only the spirit requires salvation.

Therefore, it cannot be said that Crucifixion is the Primary belief of all Christians. It appears that the Quran has picked up this view.

Body Transmigration

Four, a possibility is that Jesus transmigrated into another body; and his earlier body was nailed to the cross. In that case, the Jews/Romans would have killed his soulless body; not Him. Such would concord with the Muslim view that it appeared to them that they killed Jesus. Whether this possibility would be consistent with the Bible needs more study.

Shankara defeated Mandanamishra in a debate. But his wife Sarasavani who acted as the judge (moderator) in the debate challenged him. She asked difficult questions about sex and family life. She knew that Adi Shankara couldn’t answer such questions because of his astute Brahmacharya (celibacy). Wise Shankara asked for some time to give her the answers. While Shankara was walking through a jungle along with his disciples he saw the dead body of a king. His name was Amarukan. He told his disciples that he is going to enter in to the body of the king Amaruka and asked his disciples to preserve his body in a cave till he returns. Shankara became king Amaruka and went back to the king’s palace. During his life as a king, he learnt all about the sexual pleasures and family life. He returned to his own body after some time and answered all the questions raised by Sarasavani. This is the oldest Parakaya Pravesa story. Adi Shankara lived before Christ. Since he was mistaken with another great Shankara called Abi Nava ( meaning ‘once more a new’) Shankara, scholars placed him in eighth century AD.

Conclusion

Five, for these reasons I suggest that whether Yahweh is same as Allah cannot be determined on the dispute regarding crucifixion.

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There is certainty that Allah-Yahweh knew that Ab-ram and Ram were the same person; and Moses and Krishna were the same person. There is no denial of this to my knowledge.

Unsaid here is “At the present time.” This saying is not absolute; nor does it transcend space and time.

What is True?

Biblical God has two levels-names: Elohim=Impersonal, absolute; Yahweh=Personal. Allah combines them both in Him.

I have replied in detail above that there is a fourth option. I agree with both. Maybe Jesus transmigrated then His body was crucified. That seems to match with both Biblical and Muslim understandings.

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Please do not put words into my mouth. I never said that. I basically believe that all scriptures are inspired. Inasmuch as possible, we should interpret them in consistency with other scriptures. There are reasons to believe that the Bible, Quran and Hindu Texts have all been redacted. But we should take that position only if we find an irreconcilable contradiction between the scriptures.
I would like to quote Professor of OT Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY Eugene H. Merrill on the mismatch between archaeology and Biblical text: "if the results of archaeological investigation “appears to weaken or even totally undermine the case for a biblically-based interpretation of a text, then both the interpretation and the archaeological conclusions should be held in abeyance until a definitive harmonization or compelling reinterpretation of the data on either or both sides of the case can be achieved” ( Merrill, Eugene H. 2015. “Archaeology and OT Theology: Their Interface and Reciprocal Usefulness.” The Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 58 (4), 674).
I would like to take this same approach between scriptures, that is, "if the results of investigation “appears to weaken or even totally undermine the case for a harmonized interpretation of two texts, then both the interpretations should be held in abeyance until a definitive harmonization or compelling reinterpretation of the data on either or both sides of the case can be achieved”

Trade was undertaken by foot those times.

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I will let that pass for the historians.

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  • A reasoned argument calls for a reasoned response.
    • However, I hold the firm conviction that: “Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who try to build it. Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps awake in vain.”[Psalm 127:1]
    • Therefore, I pray that the words I type and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in your sight, Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer… [Psalm 19:14]
  • Here is my response:
  • Bharat, you base your conclusion, that: whether Yahweh is the same as Allah or not cannot be determined in a dispute regarding the crucifixion of Jesus.
    • I assert that your conclusion is false, because the removal of Jesus’ death by crucifixion from the Kerygma, i.e. “the proclamation”, that: “Jesus is risen” makes the proclamation meaningless. What does it mean to say that “Jesus is risen” if he never died? To be clear, I–like Christians in every generation before me, going back to the resurrection of Jesus–proclaim the risen Jesus who is risen precisely because he was, on earth, while in the flesh, crucified and died as a direct result of his crucifixion.
    • No death, no resurrection. No crucifixion, no death. Chronologically, the narrative proceeds like this:
      • Jesus was alive;
      • Jesus was crucified;
      • Jesus died;
      • Jesus was entombed;
      • While in the tomb, Jesus was raised from the dead, … by Yahweh.
  • Accept those facts or not for whatever reasons you please, you will not persuade me to deny any of them.
  • Having said that, the fundamental question is: What does the Qur’an say about the facts that I proclaim?
    • Here again, I quote the Qur’an from the translation given in Seyyed Hossein Nasr et. al.'s The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary:
      • Surah 4:157 of the Qur’an, says: “…and for their saying, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God”—though they did not slay him; nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so unto them. Those who differ concerning him are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge of it, but follow only conjecture; they slew him not for certain.”
      • Where, in those words, does the Qur’an avoid even the suggestion that Allah, Muhammad, and all of Islam disagree with the New Testament narrative?
  • To be clear: When the Qur’an says something, all devout Muslims affirm that the words of the Qur’an were given by Allah to Muhammad via the angel Jibrāʾīl.
  • To sustain the conclusion that whether Yahweh is the same as Allah or not cannot be determined in the dispute over the crucifixion of Jesus, one must show that something in the Bible agrees with the Qur’an that Jesus never died as a result of the crucifixion,
  • IMO, the Old Testament has nothing to contribute to the debate. What, however, does the New Testament say?
    • I submit the following evidence:
      • Paul wrote, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”
      • [The Crucifixion of Jesus]
        • Matthew 27:35, 50. And when they had crucified Him, … And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
        • Matthew 28:5-7. The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; …
        • Mark 15:24-25 And they *crucified Him, … It was the third hour when they crucified Him.
        • Mark 15:42- When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate wondered if He was dead by this time, and summoning the centurion, he questioned him as to whether He was already dead. And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
        • Luke 23:33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, …
        • Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
        • Luke 23:50-53 And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, … a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain.
        • John 19:16-18. They took Jesus, therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the Place of a Skull, … There they crucified Him, and with Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.
        • John 19:23. Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, …
        • John 19:38- After these things Joseph of Arimathea, … asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. So he came and took away His body. 39 Nicodemus, … So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. Therefore because of the Jewish day of preparation, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.
  • Clearly there are two accounts: In the Qur’an Jesus did not die as the result of being crucified. In the New Testament Jesus died as the result of crucifixion and was entombed. The two accounts differ: according to the Qur’an, Jesus “was not slain nor was he crucified”; according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified, died as a result of that crucifixion, and was entombed."
  • Say what? If Islam and Christians do not agree that Jesus died as a result of being crucified, is that enough to support a claim that Yahweh is not the same as Allah?
  • Congratulations! You’re the first person I ever encountered who thinks that irreconcilable difference is not “fatal” to your syncretic theory that Yahweh and Allah are the same “god”. And I believe you may well be one of a very few persons–if not the only person–who believe that a Jesus who did not die as the result of a crucifixion would not be fatal to a Yahweh = Allah claim.
  • You say:
  • I say “Balderdash!” and what you can conclude about the God of Unitarians and the God of Trinitarians is irrelevant and has no bearing on the difference between the Qur’an version of Jesus’ crucifixion and death and the New Testament’s version of Jesus’ crucifixion and death.
  • Balderdash again! Regardless how many Christians and Muslims vote in favor of Jesus’ messianic title or the biological nature of his birth, Jesus was either crucified or he was not and died as a consequence of that crucifixion or he did not. Neither Jesus’ crucifixion nor his death by that crucifixion are issues that are “voting issues”. What can be voted on is secondary to what cannot be voted on. The crucifixion and death of Jesus are F-U-N-D-A-M-E-N-T-A-L facts without which the earliest proclamation of his resurrection makes no sense whatsoever.
  • Excuse me? You assume, before your argument, that God is infinite and then construct a double-bind that you can’t figure out how to get out of. Nice try … but unsuccessful.
  • “how can Allah be outside Yahweh; or Yahweh outside Allah?”
  • That’s your problem, not mine; you figure it out.
  • If “God” is not infinite, then maybe there’s “room” in the cosmos for both, OR one exists and the does not or neither exist.
  • Your second reason on which you base your conclusion is, as we say here in the U.S., “a Nothing-burger”: no buns and no meat: nothing to eat.
  • LOL! Right, … did you make that up or get it from Wikipedia’s Islamic Views on Jesus’ Death?
  • Regardless where you got that from, that is certainly not in accord with what the New Testament and orthodox Christianity say. You’re “preaching” a strange “gospel”.
  • That "the Qur’an has “picked up that view” does not make the claim true nor support your goal to undermine Christianity and replace it with fantasy.
  • Yeah, right! And you have an overactive imagination. “A possibility?” For a person who rejects the law of Non-contradiction anything is possible: even “flying pigs”. So, go right ahead and study whatever text you want; meanwhile, back here on earth, “anything” is not possible.
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