The size of the Exodus

Faith & Science Conversation
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Bill. I agree with your evidences. But please make a comparative assessment. I posted the matter below in another string earlier but we could not proceed with a point-wise discussion. I request you to examine each point in a comparative framework now.

1 The parting of the Yam Suf matches with the flow of the Indus River being blocked by eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing.

2 The bitter waters are found in the area near Kabul.

3 Second Yam Suf matches with Hamun-e-Mashel water body

4 Sinai volcano matches with Taftan.

5 There exists an ancient place name ‘Paran” near Isfahan.

6 Kings Highway matches with the Silk Route from Tehran to Baghdad.

7 Mount Hor matches with Kangavar.

8 Third Yam Suf matches with Shatt al-Arab.

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Which doesn’t match what we are told in Exodus.

Edit to add:

Why would Hebrew include a word that comes from the Egyptian?

Bitter water is found in many places. The fact that there is some near Kabul really doesn’t mean anything.

While you are quite familiar with what you are arguing I am not. Give me the Biblical reference so I can tell where you are going.

And a general comment about your argument in general. When you start with the conclusion and state evidence of the form “what this really means is” which supports the conclusion you are really begging the question. It is like you have drawn a line on a map from the Indus to Canaan and just ticked off locations that happen to match the story in a vague way.

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I appreciated the one girl wearing a mask :mask: (not as much protection as an airbag in some circumstances ; - ).

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But Hebrew is pretty firmly in the Afroasiatic language family, the Semitic branch. The earliest written Semitic languages, in cuneiform, include Akkadian with inscriptions dating to around 2500 BCE (Akkadian proper names in Sumerian texts are found circa 2800 BCE). Hebrew is also closely related to the languages of the Phoenicians (including Punic). It would be extremely odd that Hebrew would be so close to the ancient Phoenician languages (not to mention Akkadian, etc) and yet under your hypothesis have developed several thousand miles away. Your hypothesis will have to account for those similarities (and also similarities to Egyptian, Arabic, etc.).
Proto-Sinaitic script which seems to be ancestral to the proto-Canaanite script has been found in inscriptions dating to at least 1500 BCE and possibly 1800 BCE in Sinai.
Proper journals don’t publish speculation only articles so it is not surprising that your article was rejected by them. They publish good research with maybe some short bits clearly marked as speculation. The speculation bits cannot be cited as evidence in other articles.

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Is there an Indus Valley in Egypt?

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Douglas Petrovich believes that Hebrew is the world’s oldest alphabetic script. (Not the oldest written language)
Is Hebrew the World’s Oldest Alphabet, and Why Should Laypeople Care? - Douglas Petrovich

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Does he have a written post? (Forgive me, dont have the luxury of watching video).

The Biblical word is Mitsrayim. It could be located either in Indus Valley or Egypt. THERE IS NO EGYPT IN THE PENTATUECH.

Why?

Indus has huge reeds. I remember reading that there are no reeds on the Red Sea. Not that Pi-Hahiroth means reeds and it was located BEFORE the crossing. So contra Egypt.

True. This was written to pre-answer a possible objection.

No no. Let us start with the mismatches in Exodus from Egypt.
Briefly.

1 No parting of sea in Egypt. The parting of the Yam Suf matches with the flow of the Indus River being blocked by eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing.

2 No location of Second Yam Suf. This matches with Hamun-e-Mashel water body.

3 Sinai under control of Egyptians.

4 No volcano in Sinai. Sinai volcano matches with Taftan.

5 No place named Paran in Sinai. There exists an ancient place name ‘Paran” near Isfahan.

6 No Kings Highway between Egypt and Israel. Kings Highway matches with the Silk Route from Tehran to Baghdad.

7 No Mount Hor in Sinai. Mount Hor matches with Kangavar.

8 No reason why Hebrews would go to Aquaba (where this is supposed to be locaed). Third Yam Suf matches with Shatt al-Arab.

9 No archaeo evidence of outmigration from Egypt or for stay in Sinai.

Forget the Indus. Please respond to all above points. No cherry-picking, please.

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The language families are determined, I believe, by comparing the structure and signs. A huge similarity is found in the signs of Sumer with Indus and Hebrew with Indus. Now, if Exodus took place from the Indus (along with a Phoenician out-migration), then that would explain the similarity with Hebrew. My hypo is that an earlier out-migration from Indus led to similarity between Sumeric and Indus signs. We find similarity in Sumeric (and its descendant languages) and Hebrew since both Sumeric and Hebrew have origins in Indus. Note also that the Mittani have deep relationship with the Indus.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15eTQo2lZUQrpl4mwxPBe6DIkGMGfgkw9/view?usp=share_link
See this for Indus connection with Egypt and Sumer, please.

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The World’s Oldest Alphabet: Hebrew as the Language of the Proto-Consonantal Script (2016)

(2016) The World’s Oldest Alphabet: Hebrew as the Language of the Proto-Consonantal Script (frontmatter)

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Mitsrayim/Mizraim is the Hebrew and Aramaic name for the land of Egypt.
In terms of geography where was the Indus Valley you refer to? Was it within the Nile Delta? How many km from Avaris?
image

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Language families are not determined by their writing systems but by how they are spoken (or signed if sign languages). Look for cognates, do the sound systems change systematically, similarities in grammar, etc. Writing is a way of recording how they are spoken but a given writing system may be used to record very different languages (for instance cuneiform is used to record both Sumerian and Akkadian which are two unrelated languages and the modern Roman alphabet is used to record many different languages). I note that the Indus script seems to have inventory of at least 400 known signs which is too many for an alphabetic system. Also with so many signs it is not surprising that there is an overlap with another writing system even if the two systems are completely independent.
Admittedly if you are claiming Hebrew is related to the Harappan language(s) that also means Arabic is also. Perhaps the Muslim invasions of India was just the return of a people to their homeland?

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You are correct. The difficulty is that indus script is not deciphered let alone we know the sounds. So all we have is signs.
Yes, I do believe in islamic homecoming. Many islamic traditions tell of adam and noah in india though they vehemently oppose abram and moses in India

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The THE JOURNAL OF INDO-JUDAIC STUDIES is a failed attempt at mutually reinforced nationalism.

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The Bible does not say this.

There is no nile or avaris in Pentateuch.

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And Miṣr or Maṣr is a transliteration of the current name as spoken by its current inhabitants. “Egypt” is descended from the Greek name for the land. The Semitic languages always seemed to have used something similar for Egypt including Akkadian.

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I already provided the answer. Exodus says it was a strong wind that pushed back the water. Very different from an upstream blockage that just stopped the flow of water. We are also told that " So the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on the dry land" which doesn’t fit. You are altering the story as usual to fit your theory.

Does the Indus have reeds that were used to make papyrus? “Hebrew suf is derived from the Egyptian for the papyrus reed.” Why is an Egyptian term used here?

So you used a non-answer to address a possible objection?

And I have asked you to provide the Biblical references for your claims.

How can you say it matches with it doesn’t?

Yam Suf is used at least 21 times in the OT per Yam Suph - Wikipedia

This would depend on how you date the Exodus.

The idea it was a volcano was a minority opinion of scholars back in the mid-nineteenth century. So the lack of an actual volcano is not a problem.

That you know. Can you prove this?

There is a well known trade route from Egypt to Mesopotamia.

There are two different Mount Hor mentioned in the Bible. The inability to identify which local mountain corresponds with these descriptions (there are several good candidates) doesn’t mean “No Mount Hor in Sinai.”

No reason that you are aware of. Doesn’t mean they didn’t have a reason.

I will just say this is incorrect based on what I have read in a variety of sources. There is evidence for the presence of Sematic people living in the Nile delta. Likewise, what archaeological evidence can you present for the exodus out of the Indus?

Are there unanswered questions when it comes to the Exodus? Sure, but none that rise to the level of saying it didn’t happen.

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I read this. It does not give the argument. Yet, there are two points to consider. One, there is a huge correspondence between the Egyptian, Sumeric and Indus signs. (see this https://drive.google.com/file/d/15eTQo2lZUQrpl4mwxPBe6DIkGMGfgkw9/view?usp=share_link). So whoch came first cannot be determined by study of language.
Two, the Egyptians and Sumerians themselves seem to say they came from Indus. So it would be difficult to sustain that Hebrew was the earliest. More if you can provide a paper giving the argument.

A story of the Sumerian Civilization records the birth of life in the country of Dilmun (Note 1). Dilmun have is located in the Indus Valley (Note 2). This means that the Sumerians believed the seat of creation was located in the Indus Valley.

The Egyptians say that they came from a land called “Punt” located across the Sea (Note 3).

Egyptologist Gerald Massey says that Egyptian legends give the name “anta” to the place of creation. This term also means “the land of dawn.” (Note 4). This indicates that the place of creation was located towards the dawn, or the east.

The Egyptian Papyrus of Ani mentions the central themes of creation in the following order:

The creation of humankind;

The sun rising;

The land of Manu;

Travel in a boat;

The land of Punt (Note 5).

Here, (1) “The creation of humankind” tells that these events took place at the time of creation. (2) “The sun rising” places these events in the east and matches with India. (3) “The land of Manu” is momentous. “Manu” was the name of Adam in the Hindu texts, as we have shown in the first section of this chapter. “The land of Manu” could, therefore, be located in the Indus Valley. (4) “Travel in a boat” matches with the Egyptians travelling in a boat to the Indus Valley.

The abovementioned literary evidences from Sumer and Egypt point to creation having taken place in India. We assume that people migrated from the Indus Valley to these places after the “creation.” They may have carried the narratives of creation from the Indus Valley to Sumer and Egypt. The Hebrews later brought the same narratives from the Indus Valley to Yisrael. The similarity between the Sumerian, Egyptian and Semitic narratives could arise from the common source of these narratives in the Indus Valley.

Note 1: Grimal, Pierre, Larousse World Mythology, 1969, Page 59.

Note 2: The phrase “where the morning sun rises confirms that Indus Valley lying to the east may be indicated; “I… came up with the tentative hypothesis that Dilmun, a land mentioned frequently in the Sumerian texts and glorified in Sumerian myth, may turn out to be the Indus land or at least some part of it” (Kramer, Samuel Noah, The Indus Civilization and Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land, Expedition, Spring 1964, [www.penn.museum/documents/publications/…/6-3/The%20Indus.pdf]

Note 3: Ranganathan, Babu G, Indian Origin of Egyptian Civilization, April 3, 2010, [Babu G. Ranganathan's Articles on Religion and Science: Indian Origin of Egyptian Civilization].

Note 4: [Massey, Gerald, Ancient Egypt - The Light Of The World , Book 5, The Sign-Language Of Astronomical Mythology, Part 1, 1907, http://www.masseiana.org/aebk5.htm, Retrieved October 12, 2010.]

Note 5: “Hail… creator of mankind… The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising… The… god… cometh unto the land of Manu… May I see Horus in charge of the rudder… may I grasp the bows of the seket boat…” The land of Punt is mentioned in one of the four alternative translations: “The land of Punt is established for the perfumes which thou smellest with thy nostrils” (Budge, E A Wallis, The Book of the Dead, The Papyrus of Ani, Book of Dead Plate 1, Retrieved September 14, 2015). Elsewhere, Budge translates this as “land of Manu (i.e., the land where the sun sets)” (Budge, E A Wallis, Egyptian Religion: Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life, Arkana, London, 1899 , Page 29-30). The phrase “the land where the sun sets,” is apparently added by Budge. This phrase does not make sense in view of the statement that Ra is seen in his rising which clearly points to sunrise and not sunset.

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Bill. I welcome and much appreciate your willingness to engage. Yet I am unable to respond unless you lay out your arguments. For example, you say, above. I am unable to respond to this unless you lay out your understanding. Otherwise, let us rest here.

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As far as I know, the earliest use of the name “Misr” is from about 1300 BCE in Sumerian or cognate languages. Egyptians called themselves K-M-T. Thus, use of Mitsrayim in the narrative of Abraham is not explained.

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Given you never respond to anything I say maybe that is best.

But I would like an answer to this at least.

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