The size of the Exodus

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

I don’t view the issue here as purely an archeological one these guys are historians with extensive academic credentials. I would argue that it is impossible that many of them are not also educated and experienced in archeology (even if that was not their primary academic qualification)

Did you mean to write it is possible or that it is not impossible? That would make more sense.
At any rate, you could always check the background of any author to try to discover any archaeological qualifications.

@adamjedgar

I sense that a with your view on this, is that you are refusing to accept that anything other than a scientific result as being valid (ie an archeological find is valid because that is science, however, an historians find is not valid because that is not science).

Ridiculous! And you keep moving the goalposts.

[Erp]

@beaglelady

The second link has one article that purports to be about archaeology but is very, very suspect! Right up there with “Chariots of the Gods.” Did you bother to read it? What do you think of the content?

Eyebrow raising. For instance a short section entitled Hebrew language talks instead about Hebrew script and similarity to as yet undeciphered Harappan script. Ignoring the generally agreed relationship Egyptian hieroglyphs to the scripts of the Levant. Also ignoring the close relationship of Hebrew language to various other Semitic languages.

articles is by
Bharat Jhujhunwala
Formerly, Indian Institute of Management, Bengaluru.
“Possible Origins of the Abrahamic and Hindu
Religions in the Indus Valley: An Exploration”
Journal of Archaeological Studies in India
Vol. 1, No. 1, 2021, pp. 95-122

I note the journal is suppose to be a bi-annual yet has yet to publish any issue this year (and last year was its first year so a total of two issues so far). The numbers of references to it in a google search are extremely slim.

[beaglelady]

@Erp

Eyebrow raising. For instance a short section entitled Hebrew language talks instead about Hebrew script and similarity to as yet undeciphered Harappan script. Ignoring the generally agreed relationship Egyptian hieroglyphs to the scripts of the Levant. Also ignoring the close relationship of Hebrew language to various other Semitic languages.

Funky stuff! I’m reminded of how Joseph Smith discovered the Book of Mormon in New York State. He was able to translate it with a “peep stone” from the original “reformed Egyptian,” a language nobody has every heard of!

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@beaglelady

Funky stuff! I’m reminded of how Joseph Smith discovered the Book of Mormon in New York State. He was able to translate it with a “peep stone” from the original “reformed Egyptian,” a language nobody has every heard of!

I do not think there is any parallel between the finding of the book of Mormon and the research papers here. The book of Mormon has no other witness other than a single delusional man who was shot dead a criminal attempting to violently defend himself from prosecution at the hands of locals who he had wronged, however, for some reason his followers manage to continue to consider it martyrdom.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

I suggest you consult an actual paper on the subject, such as

MUD-BRICK ARCHITECTURE

Read it. This is ok. It makes no mention of straw. So please make comparison with Indus on straw.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

Read it. This is ok. It makes no mention of straw.

That wasn’t the point. riversea was asking about mud bricks and I thought she would find it useful.

@bharatjj

So please make comparison with Indus on straw.

I did. The difference in straw content between sun dried and baked bricks is small. See the paper I linked above.

@Bill_II

And according to this paper
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289857770_STRAW_STABILIZED_LOCAL_CLAY_BRICKS For burnt brick the optimum straw content is just 1 percent which isn’t that different from the 0.6 percent for sun dried brick.

The reason sun dried brick was used in Egypt is probably, IMHO, due to the lack of fuel needed to fire brick. Given the early pyramids were built with a core of mud brick covered with stone it is obvious to the most casual observer that the Egyptians were experts in using sun dried brick.

And you have mentioned the used of fired bricks to build the Tower of Babble. Again the difference would be the abundant fuel in Mesopotamia. So if you want to argue the availability of fuel in the Indus valley to make fired brick go ahead, but then you lose the support of what the Bible has to say about the difficulty the Hebrews faced in Egypt.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

I do not think there is any parallel between the finding of the book of Mormon and the research papers here.

Only the finest scholarship! You should subscribe. Or even contribute an article.

[Erp]

@adamjedgar

I do not think there is any parallel between the finding of the book of Mormon and the research papers here. The book of Mormon has no other witness other than a single delusional man who was shot dead a criminal attempting to violently defend himself from prosecution at the hands of locals who he had wronged, however, for some reason his followers manage to continue to consider it martyrdom.

Joseph Smith was a criminal but he was murdered by a mob while imprisoned (though he and his brother did have smuggled in guns). Lynch justice is not justice. Also as the LDS will point out they do have sworn evidence from people who said they saw the gold plates so not just one deluded man (admittedly it might be one con man and a group of deluded people).

However the second research paper does seem to be just as reasonable as modern day LDS research into say “Archaeological Trends and the Book of Mormon Origins” https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/archaeological-trends-and-the-book-of-mormon-origins/ The conclusion is assumed and evidence is chosen and interpreted to support it.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Erp

The conclusion is assumed and evidence is chosen and interpreted to support it.

Who would do that.

[beaglelady]

@Erp

Lynch justice is not justice.

So true. Joseph Smith destroyed the printing press of a paper that criticized him. He should have faced charges for just that. He should not have been murdered.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

The printing press event was not the worst of it…you forgot what Smith did in the Kirtland Safety Society saga. Mormon erradicstion started well before the printing press debacle. They were violently chased out of Missouri by the locals!
He was nothing more than a cheat and a delusional controlling connartist.

In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for “glass-looking”, or pretending to find lost treasure.

Joseph Smith

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

erradicstion

Don’t know what that word means.

@adamjedgar

In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for “glass-looking”, or pretending to find lost treasure.

He accepted “leg bail” for that and agreed to leave the area. No death penalty for that.

[aarceng (Chris)]

This is now completely off topic.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

Chris is right. If no further posts about the posted topic, will close if it continues to stray.

[riversea]

@jpm

Even communication and coordination would be challenging

@jpm I wonder this too. How to communicate and coordinate?

• How to keep people from going up Mount Saini to find out how Moses is doing?

• As I read from bible, I picture everyone submissive obeying Aaron.

• How did Aaron keep everyone so submissive to him?

• Picture your friend hiked up a volcano while you remain behind Would you go up the volcano to find out if your friend is ok?

• Would you let Aaron prevent you from hiking up the volcano to find out if your friend Moses is ok?

• How did Aaron have so much control over all these people by preventing anyone to see if Moses is ok?

• That alone would be difficult to communicate and coordinate

[aarceng (Chris)]

It did create a lot of unrest, hence the Golden Calf incident.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

The reason sun dried brick was used in Egypt is probably, IMHO, due to the lack of fuel needed to fire brick

Exactly. I agree.

@Bill_II

So if you want to argue the availability of fuel in the Indus valley to make fired brick go ahead, but then you lose the support of what the Bible has to say about the difficulty the Hebrews faced in Egypt.

I don’t get it. The need and scarcity straw required for burning bricks was precisely the cause of conflict between the Pharaoh and the Hebrews. This is supported by the Bible.

BTW straw is used for baking bricks in Indian even today. Pl see photos below.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@aarceng

It did create a lot of unrest, hence the Golden Calf incident.

Will you please explain why unrest was created? To me it seems a simple relapse into idol worship. Please know that Indian venerate the cow. So Aaron’s calf worship could have its origins in the Indus Valley from where the Hebrews left for Israel.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

The need and scarcity straw required for burning bricks was precisely the cause of conflict between the Pharaoh and the Hebrews.

The need and scarcity of straw required to make sun dried bricks was precisely the cause of conflict between the Pharaoh and the Hebrews. Millions of sun dried bricks were required remember.

@bharatjj

BTW straw is used for baking bricks in Indian even today.

Is that quantity of straw gathered by hand with no powered equipment? Big difference between manual and mechanized agriculture.

@bharatjj

So Aaron’s calf worship could have its origins in the Indus Valley from where the Hebrews left for Israel.

Bull worship was found in many places including Egypt.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Erp

For instance a short section entitled Hebrew language talks instead about Hebrew script and similarity to as yet undeciphered Harappan script. Ignoring the generally agreed relationship Egyptian hieroglyphs to the scripts of the Levant. Also ignoring the close relationship of Hebrew language to various other Semitic languages.

The paper was focused on the geographical indicators. Indeed, the Journal could use much improvement. Allow me to share my sadness. The western journals seem to be unwilling to consider a radical thesis such as this. There would be no need to discuss this here if the Western Journals had considered this. But, God wants this to succeed, and it will–in due time. For the present, IMHO, let us discuss the content.
As far as Hebrew language is concerned, I have done some study but not adequate. The difficulty is that we do not know the language of the Indus Valley c. 1500 BCE. So the second best approach was to compare the signs. That section was not supposed to be a conclusive proof. It was only to show the possibility which requires further study.