The size of the Exodus

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

“Hebrew suf is derived from the Egyptian for the papyrus reed.” Why is an Egyptian term used here?

This is the kind of discussion that is welcome.

1] Please give details as to why suf is an Egyptian word.

2] Even if that be, Egyptian signs are known to be parallel to Indus signs. So one possibility Indus > Egypt. See Waddel’s work https://drive.google.com/file/d/15eTQo2lZUQrpl4mwxPBe6DIkGMGfgkw9/view?usp=share_link

3] One solitary word does not work. Consider the following parallels in the proper names (that are less likely to be transmitted generally). I have traced the parallels in names of 22 persons from Adam to Moses in the Bible and Hindu texts. I give below those related to the Exodus:

1] Amram, father of Moses, and his parallel Hindu Vasudeva, father of Krishna. The name Amram means “exalted people.” The name “Vasudeva” has two parts. “Vasu” means “excellent, good, beneficent” and Deva means God. Thus, Vasudeva means “excellent God” which is similar to “exalted people.”

2] Moses’ mother Jochebed and her parallel Krishna’s mother Devaki. The name “Jochebed” is derived from Jehovah or God. “Jochebed” means “Jehovah is glory.” Devaki, on the other hand was daughter of Devaka. The name Devaka means “divine or celestial”. So Devaki means daughter of the divine which is parallel to Jochebed meaning Jehovah is glory.

3] Moses and is parallel Hindu Krishna. Moses’ skin was dark. At one time Moses was at Mount Sinai. God wanted to show him His powers. He asked Moses to put his hand inside his cloak. The Bible says that his hand became white. Then God again asked him to put his hand in the cloak and it regains its normal color. The skin becoming white means that the skin was “not white” before it became white; which means it was dark. Therefore, we can say that the word Moses has a connection with darkness. The name Krishna directly means black, dark or dark blue.

4] Aaron and his parallel Hindu Balarama. Both names have the common sounds “A,” “R” and “N” or “M.”

These persons are in same genealogical order in Hindu texts as in the Bible. So, you may like to explain why these similarities.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

For example, you say, above. I am unable to respond to this unless you lay out your understanding.

This is what you asked me to do.

@bharatjj

Please respond to all above points. No cherry-picking, please.

Which I did and you chose not to respond. It appears when I poke a hole in your argument you ignore it. So please actually respond to what I posted above.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

So please actually respond to what I posted above.

Let us complete yam suf. Then we will take other points.

[riversea]

@adamjedgar

Rather, they view the statues and images as physical representations of God to help them focus on an aspect of prayer or meditation.

I agree that images and statues assist them in focusing on a specific aspect of prayer or meditation. In your opinion, what exactly is scientifically happening when people use images and statues to help focus?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@riversea

what exactly is scientifically happening when people use images and statues to help focus?

The chanting of mantras or lighting of lamps changes the psychic configuration of the metal of the idol like a permanent magnet. Then the idol re.spreads those psychic charges. This was the idea of Aaron making the golden calf.
Indeed, it has not been proven that metal can absorb spiritual charges. However, research of Masaru Emoto and others ssems to say that water can hold spiritual charges. The Hindus believe that there are seven spiritual centers in the spine. This is not “proven.” That does not mean these do not exist. The question asked was “in your opinion.” I am giving my opinion that may or may not be “scientifically” (meaning modern material-based sciences) proven. But there is more to spirituality than material and modern sciences.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

Let us complete yam suf.

What is there to complete? The literal translation is Sea of Reeds where the Hebrew suf is an Egyptian loan word for a fresh water reed. It is used 23 times in the OT and does not always refer to the same location. For example, the use in I Kings 9:26 clearly identifies “yam suf” with the Red Sea.

FYI, “The Septuagint (second to third century BCE) translated Yam Suf into Greek as Erythra Thalassa or Red Sea”.

And why are there so many Egyptian loan words in the OT? Per a paper I found there are 27 different loan words used a total of 381 times in just Exodus and the wilderness narratives.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

It is used 23 times in the OT and does not always refer to the same location. For example, the use in I Kings 9:26 clearly identifies “yam suf” with the Red Sea.

Please give link to “suf” being an Egyptian word. (My point No 1 at post 121).

Further, we find that 34 places listed in the endnote are mentioned in both the pre- and post-Exodus narratives of the Bible (Ai, Assyria, Avith, Beersheba, Bethel, Canaan, Dothan, Edom, Egypt, Gerar, Gilead, Goshen, Havilah, Hebron, Jordan, Kadesh, Kiriath Arba, Luz, Mahanaim, Midian, Moab, Moreh, Moriah, Negev, Paran, Penuel, Philistine, Yam Suph (Reed Sea), Seir, Shechem, Shur, Succoth, Zeboim and Zoar). Our hypothesis is that the pre-Exodus events were located in the Indus Valley and the post-Exodus events were located in Yisrael. The mention of these 34 places in both the narratives could be explained by postulating that the Hebrews carried names of these places from the Indus Valley and gave them to certain places in Yisrael that now carry these names. We see that migrants frequently give names of their home locations to their host locations. For example, the names Liverpool, London, and York have been carried from the United Kingdom and given to Liverpool in New South Wales, Australia; London in Ontario, Canada; and New York City in the United States.

In this same manner we suggest that the Hebrews gave the name “Aravalli” of the mountain in the Indus Valley, modified as “Ararat,” to the mountain in Turkey that carries that name today. They gave the name “Meru,” modified as “Moriah,” to the Temple Mount at Jerusalem. They gave the name “Yamuna,” modified as “Jordan,” to the river of Yisrael that carries this name today.

At the same time, 27 places listed in the endnote are mentioned only in the pre-Exodus narratives of the Bible and not mentioned in the post-Exodus narratives (Abel Mizraim, Admah,* Atad, Beer Lahai Roi, Bela, Eder, Elam, Ellasar, Galeed, Gomorrah,* Haran,* Machpelah, Mamre, Pau, Padan Aram,* Peniel, Rehoboth,* River of Egypt,* Shinar,* Siddim, Sin,* Sinai,* Sitnah, Sodom,* Tidal, Ur of the Chaldeans,* Zeboim* and Zin.* Place names marked with asterisk are mentioned in the post-Exodus narrative always alluding to the pre-Exodus events). These include important places like Sodom, Gomorrah, Siddim, and Sinai. This is surprising because the Hebrews travelled frequently through the areas where these places are allegedly located in Yisrael. They would have passed through these places after reaching Yisrael and could not have but noticed the existence of these places. For example, Sodom is allegedly located on the banks of the Dead Sea in Yisrael. The Hebrews passed through this area many times after they reached Yisrael. They would have remembered the existence of Sodom here. But we do not find them mentioning this city in their post-Exodus narratives as a living city. All references to Sodom in the post-Exodus narrative invariably refer to the events that took place here before the Exodus took place.

This leads us to suggest that, unlike the earlier list of 34 places, the migrants did not give the names of these 27 places to places in Yisrael. The absence of mention of these cities in the post-Exodus narratives as living places suggests that these were located at a place other than Yisrael, possibly in the Indus Valley.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@bharatjj

These persons are in same genealogical order in Hindu texts as in the Bible. So, you may like to explain why these similarities.

Please also respond to points nos 2-4 in my post no 121. Thx. I welcome your inputs.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

Please give link to “suf” being an Egyptian word.

The JPS Torah Commentary Exodus, Nahum M. Sarna, 1991, pg 69 which references
T. O. Lambdin, “Egyptian Loan Words in the Old Testament”, JAOS 73(1953) pg 153

I also found a more recent paper which is available as a pdf here.
Benjamin J. Noonan, Egyptian Loanwords as Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus and Wilderness Traditions, Chapter 3 of “Did I Not Bring Israel Out of Egypt?”, 2016, Penn State Press

This actually references 2 loan words that mean reed plant, but not reading Hebrew I don’t know which corresponds with suf. Given one is used 11 times I would suspect it is the word in question.

[riversea]

@bharatjj

However, research of Masaru Emoto and others ssems to say that water can hold spiritual charges

I look up Masaru Emoto and found video. I snip from video to show about water. Video Dr Masaru Emoto’s Water Experiments https://youtu.be/6-6eeEawA8A

Showing water

Showing water

• Sounds and spirituality are another exploration, and using our imagination during the sounds of the Exodus era to sense the written word more

• How have sounds and spirituality influenced their journey, and what did they learn that was passed down through sound?

[riversea]

@Bill_II

And according to this paper for burnt brick the optimum straw content is just 1 percent which isn’t that different from the 0.6 percent for sun dried brick. It is possible that the Egyptians favored sun dried brick for the simple reason that there was abundant sun light but fuel to fire bricks was scarce.

Hey hey @Bill_II that article you shared from researchgate, I found out that @bharatjj wrote there too., check this out

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Benjamin J. Noonan, Egyptian Loanwords as Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus and Wilderness Traditions, Chapter 3 of “Did I Not Bring Israel Out of Egypt?”, 2016, Penn State Press

Thank you for this very good paper.

1. Let us say suph was an Indus word c. 4000 BCE. (One word for such reeds in Hindi is sarpat, with the common consonants s and p). The word was carried from Indus to Egypt 4m-3m BCE (post 117 above).
   Then Exodus carried the same word from Indus Valley to Israel c. 1500 BCE (post 127 above).
   The result is that we find concordance between Indus-Egyptian-Hebrew. These loanwords do not prove Suph refers to reeds of Egypt.

2. Pi-Hahiroth means sedges. These are also not found on the Red Sea; and found on the banks of the Indus river. (see photo below.).
   

   

3. No names corresponding to Moses, Aaron, Jochebed, Amram, Mitsrayim in Egypt at 1500 BCE. Note that the loanwords given by Noonan are common nouns and do not establish connection with the Biblical narratives. We find not only common proper names but also common narratives in Indus Valley.
   Please respond to each point. Thanks.

[Erp]

The name ‘Moses’ definitely seems to have Egyptian connections to a word meaning ‘is born’ which shows up in Egyptian names like Thutmose (meaning son of Thoth and a Thutmose likely was ruling Egypt in 1500 BCE), Amenmose, Ramose. Aaron may be derived from “aha rw” meaning radiant lion.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

Let us say suph was an Indus word c. 4000 BCE.

So exactly how many Indus words are found in Late Egyptian? If there is one there should be others. And what group of people carried these words to Egypt? It would have to be a large group if the locals adopted their words.

@bharatjj

Pi-Hahiroth means sedges.

Where did this word come from and why bring it up?

@bharatjj

No names corresponding to Moses, Aaron, Jochebed, Amram, Mitsrayim in Egypt at 1500 BCE.

And why are you expecting to find Hebrew names in Egypt? There were slaves after all. And Mitsrayim is what the Hebrews called Egypt just like the Greeks called it Aegyptos and the Egyptians called it Kemet.

@bharatjj

Note that the loanwords given by Noonan are common nouns and do not establish connection with the Biblical narratives.

His paper answers the following questions.

First, are the proportions of Egyptian loanwords in the exodus and wilderness traditions greater than those of the remainder of the Hebrew Bible? Second, are the proportions of Egyptian loanwords in the exodus and wilderness traditions greater than those of Northwest Semitic texts in general? Third, is there any evidence that the Egyptian loanwords in the exodus and wilderness narratives were borrowed during the Late Bronze Age?

That they are common nouns isn’t a problem. Is it the frequency they are used. And BTW he does answer all of these questions in the paper.

@bharatjj

We see that migrants frequently give names of their home locations to their host locations.

But migrants know that the new Liverpool isn’t the same location as their home. In fact sometimes they call it “New London” for example. I know you think there was a great cultural amnesia but you really haven’t done anything to prove that it did happen.

@bharatjj

For example, Sodom is allegedly located on the banks of the Dead Sea in Yisrael.

That is only one proposed location which doesn’t fit the geography described in Genesis. A better location has been identified.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

So exactly how many Indus words are found in Late Egyptian? If there is one there should be others. And what group of people carried these words to Egypt? It would have to be a large group if the locals adopted their words.

Indus script is not deciphered.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Where did this word come from and why bring it up?

That is the place of crossing. Pl see the Bible.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

BTW he does answer all of these questions in the paper.

Not that I can see anywhere.

How do you explain the parallel proper names in same genealogical order in india?

You. But migrants know that the new Liverpool isn’t the same location as their home. In fact sometimes they call it “New London” for example.
Not always as u say.

You have make a comparative study.

[riversea]

@Bill_II

Benjamin J. Noonan, Egyptian Loanwords

@bharatjj @Bill_II @Erp @adamjedgar @aarceng

I learn a new word ‘loanwords’

The definition of loanwords is “borrow from another language.”

Here’s a 59 seconds clip from Benjamin J. Noonan explaining what is loanwords

YouTube

[riversea]

@Bill_II

But migrants know that the new Liverpool isn’t the same location as their home. In fact sometimes they call it “New London” for example. I know you think there was a great cultural amnesia but you really haven’t done anything to prove that it did happen

Personal scene of amnesia

Mom told me what happened, yet I have no memory of what happened. What would have happened if Mom never told me? Yet I still went through the situations, but I have no memories of what happened.

Is history or the past dependent on people sharing their stories? Because where does history or the past go when it is not shared?

[Bill_II]

@riversea

Is history or the past dependent on people sharing their stories?

Very young people don’t retain many memories and often the “memory” they have is the result of a parent telling them a story. Then there is cultural memory which is the result of adults and children sharing information that is retained because it is known by so many members of the culture. A memory can get lost over time if enough of the adults stop sharing it.