The science behind Cancer Immunotherapy

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Just one urologist and his PA took mine out, so does not apply. I have implicit faith in God’s sovereignty, but I still wear my seatbelt and brush my teeth.

I suppose the hypothetical hyper-Calvinist in the morning might be obsessing over which pair of socks to wear and be looking for leading. The joke about the subscribers to different faiths and the reactions of each after falling down the stairs is apropos of me, though:

Denominational falling:

When the Methodist falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, “That was an experience! How do I learn from it?”

When the Catholic falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, “I must have done something really bad to deserve that!”

When the Calvinist falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, “I don’t know why that had to happen, but I’m glad it’s over!”

When a Lutheran falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, “Who pushed me?”

And in retrospect, sometimes we might see a reason.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

I’ve posted this before so you might have seen it, but a song I like a lot is on topic: Blessings, by Laura Story.

[Randy]

My sister was a friend of Laura Story in Columbia Bible College (CIU). Believe they jogged together. I met her there once…nice lady. My dad asked for that song for his funeral when he knew he would likely die from mesothelioma.

[beaglelady]

After having a stroke, my sense of balance is shot and I’m terrified of stairs. For many people a fall can be deadly. Bumping your head can cause a brain bleed, especially if you are on blood thinner. So I want Calvinist god to stay away from me and all people.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

I call myself a ‘God-is-omnitemporal Calvinist’, and I want (and have) him in my life. Maggie’s beautiful sequence and my nephrectomy account are just two cases illustrating how it is dynamic and not to be feared at all. It is something to rest in.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

How else could Paul boast in his infirmities?

[Ani99]

@Boscopup

Sounds like the kid might have had a habit cough. I’ve had two kids develop this at separate times. Thankfully, with the first kid, a lady at church who sat behind me worked for a local pediatric pulmonologist. They see this a lot. She gave me the name of a speech pathologist that treats this, and after one session by son stopped coughing. What likely happened was he had a cold at some point and developed the habit of coughing. He just needed to be reminded that he didn’t really have to cough. Swallowing could be done instead. Later, my autistic son developed a habit cough. It took a little longer to get rid of it in him, because he needs something to replace the habit, but we did get rid of it.

In both cases, no cheating going on by anyone. In fact, I’ve had plenty of heavy emotional stuff in the last two years that haven’t affected my kids at all. Their habit coughs occurred in years where things were going well with all of us emotionally.

I do hope you don’t give your cancer advice to others. I’ve already lost one friend to bogus natural healing (she turned down chemo and radiation for her uterine cancer and did coffee enemas instead… thought she was cancer free for a little while, then it came back quickly and left her 2 year old daughter without a mother).

No habit cough. It happened once one evening for about 1/2 an hour. Then a week later after I had given his mother the advice, which she understood and agreed with, there was one cough and nothing more. His mother had been able to reject the ideas and the problem was solved.

Now for natural healing.
I am not giving any advice about any medical cures, including coffee enemas. The advice I give will not interfere with anything a person wants to have or not have.

Now since you think that my advice is bad consider. The medical establishment is selling the ideas:

1. that there are carcinogens, for which they have NO evidence. We do see a mutation due to some mutagen in the laboratory in tissue cultures but they never become cancer.
2. The official medical story is that cancer is abnormal cells dividing out of control. This denies the stark evidence to the contrary. Cancer has stem cells, which give rise to all the other cells in the cancer tumor because it is not just a bunch of cancer cells. On average around 55% of the cancer tumor is made up of connective tissue like every organ in the body. Some cancers have up to 90% normal cells. It also has a blood supply, lymphatic supply and in most cases solid tumors even have a nerve supply.
3. The notion that western medicine treats cancer very successfully and most people survive. To get this claim they have defined survival in terms of 2, 5 and 10 years. If a person survive even the 2 years after diagnosis and certainly five years, he or she is counted as a “survivor” even though they die soon after.
   ESMO 2018: Why We are Losing the War on Cancer
   There are many points I can make but let’s just look at one more that is devious indeed.
4. In around 2000 Two prominent biomedical scientists, Hannahan and Weinberg published the Hallmarks of Cancer. If one looks closely at them we find that they are nothing more than the Hallmarks of Stem Cells.
   Cancer is an industry. And people like me who speak up about how the public story is not supported by the science are consider scum.

[Ani99]

@MOls

Hopefully it is abundantly clear how incorrect, and thus unhelpful Kyrani‘s ideas are. Fortunately, the great work of many scientists and doctors has led to increasing understanding of the biology of cancer, which has led to some great advances in cancer treatments over the years.

It’s important that rebuttals of bad ideas can also be offered at places like BioLogos

Here is some of the work of the great scientists. They have improved the immune system to attack what exactly…

Proteins that are found on cancer cells… how good is that!

Ah but wait… these proteins are found on normal cells and even immune system cells. Have a look

From the link that MOls posted. Adoptive Cell Therapy | Cancer Research Institute

BCMA: an important signaling receptor found naturally on mature B cells; often expressed by lymphoma and myeloma cells

Targeting B Cell Maturation Antigen

Frontiers | Targeting B Cell Maturation Antigen (BCMA) in Multiple Myeloma:...

CD19: a receptor found on the surface of almost all B cells that influences their growth, development, and activity; often expressed by leukemia, lymphoma, and myeloma cells

CD19 as an attractive target for antibody-based therapy

I won’t go through them all but you can find on the web they are all “attractive targets” for immunotherapy.

Immune cell markers.

• CD22: a receptor found primarily on the surface of mature B cells;

• CD30 : a receptor that is expressed on certain types of activated immune cells;

• CD33: a surface receptor found on several types of immune cells

• CD56: a protein found on both neurons and natural killer immune cells

• CD123 (also known as IL-3R): a receptor found on immune cells that is involved in proliferation and differentiation, and often expressed by leukemia and lymphoma cells

These appear to be sundries.

• Mesothelin: a protein that is commonly overexpressed in cancer and may aid metastasis
• MUC-1: a sugar-coated protein that is commonly overexpressed in cancer
• PSCA: a surface protein that is found on several cell types and is often overexpressed by cancer cells
• PSMA: a surface protein found on prostate cells that is often overexpressed by prostate cancer cells
• MAGE antigens: the genes that produce these proteins are normally turned off in adult cells, but can become reactivated in cancer cells, flagging them as abnormal to the immune system
• CEA: a protein involved in cellular adhesion normally produced only before birth; often abnormally expressed in cancer and may contribute to metastasis

Various proteins involved in the cell cycle.

• EGFR: a pathway that controls cell growth and is often mutated in cancer
• GD2: a pathway that controls cell growth, adhesion, and migration, and is often abnormally overexpressed in cancer cells
• GPC3: a cell surface protein thought to be involved in regulating growth and cell division
• HER2: a pathway that controls cell growth and is commonly overexpressed in some cancers, particularly breast cancer, and is associated with metastasis
• WT1: a protein that promotes cancer progression, is abnormally expressed in patients with cancer, especially leukemia
• Claudin 18.2: a surface protein overexpressed in some esophageal cancers and involved in invasion and survival

Proteins expressed before birth.

• NY-ESO-1: a protein that is normally produced only before birth, but is often abnormally expressed in cancer
• ROR1: a tyrosine kinase-like orphan receptor that is mostly expressed before birth rather than in adult tissues, but is often abnormally expressed in cancer and may promote cancer cell metastasis as well as prevent cancer cell death

Only these are not normal cells / normal stem cell markers.

• EBV-related antigens: foreign viral proteins expressed by Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV)-infected cancer cells
• HPV-related antigens: foreign viral proteins expressed by cancer cells that develop as a consequence of having been infected with Human Papilloma Virus (HPV)

Can you explain how these proteins appear on cancer cells from what is commonly called genetic instability… How do copying errors and damage from “cancinogens” do this? How do abnormal cells attain such sophistication.

I will answer you on the post above, but I first want to get all my notes together.

[Ani99]

@beaglelady

She’s already doing it here. Biologos isn’t just a place to spread kooky ideas–it can be used to spread dangerous ones as well.

Really, really dangerous ideas like spontaneous remission of cancer. How dangerous? Well it could lose “the industry” several trillion dollars. That’s “trillion” with a “t”.

[Boscopup]

@Ani99

No habit cough. It happened once one evening for about 1/2 an hour. Then a week later after I had given his mother the advice, which she understood and agreed with, there was one cough and nothing more.

The kid coughed once for half an hour and you think the mother’s attitude was causing it? Perhaps they just swallowed down the wrong hole that night. And why weren’t they coughing the rest of the week? I think you’re inventing a problem that didn’t really exist.

@Ani99

Cancer is an industry. And people like me who speak up about how the public story is not supported by the science are consider scum.

This right here is disgusting to say. Tens of thousands of oncologists across the world are trying to help patients, and you’re basically saying that they’re all in collusion to profit off their patients.

I won’t join you in your slanderous conspiracy theories. None of what you have said here makes any scientific sense.

You shouldn’t be taken credibly. You’ve demonstrated no reason to do so. You’re just trying to pass off woo as science. That won’t work here.

[Ani99]

@Boscopup

The kid coughed once for half an hour and you think the mother’s attitude was causing it? Perhaps they just swallowed down the wrong hole that night. And why weren’t they coughing the rest of the week? I think you’re inventing a problem that didn’t really exist.

@Ani99

Cancer is an industry. And people like me who speak up about how the public story is not supported by the science are consider scum.

This right here is disgusting to say. Tens of thousands of oncologists across the world are trying to help patients, and you’re basically saying that they’re all in collusion to profit off their patients.

I won’t join you in your slanderous conspiracy theories. None of what you have said here makes any scientific sense.

You shouldn’t be taken credibly. You’ve demonstrated no reason to do so. You’re just trying to pass off woo as science. That won’t work here.

Mother’s attitude is NOT causing anything. The mother is adversely influenced by other related, inhumane people with some agenda. His mother understood and agreed when I told her what I suspected. No invention of any problem.

The doctors, whether oncologists or others, are not in control of their own profession. There is no collusion among the doctors. I certainly have seen a few greedy doctors by the greater number I have seen in my life, and certainly the oncologists that diagnosed me, were all very decent people.
The drug companies control the doctors. They control what they learn, what they can practice, what they can treat as evidence and so on. You only have to see the medical literature, the research and you will soon see that the story being upheld by the doctors, who are held to the task, has no scientific basis. So who is slanderous?

[Boscopup]

@Ani99

The mother is adversely influenced by other related, inhumane people with some agenda.

Which has nothing to do with her child coughing. You have not made any kind of credible connection between the two. The kid had a 30 minute coughing fit once, and you say there’s some kind of problem from an outside person? I don’t get it. You can basically make up anything and say it’s someone with an outside agenda.

@Ani99

The drug companies control the doctors. They control what they learn, what they can practice, what they can treat as evidence and so on. You only have to see the medical literature, the research and you will soon see that the story being upheld by the doctors, who are held to the task, has no scientific basis.

You haven’t demonstrated any of that. You’ve just been making up wild hypotheses with no evidence to back them up.

Now you’re slandering the drug companies. Real people work at these companies. Real people run the trials. Doctors are involved in the trials. There are Independent Review Boards associated with the trials. Individual studies will certainly have problems (real, fallible humans are performing them), but that’s where you factor in peer review and repeatability to ferret those out. You are still following conspiracy theory instead of presenting real evidence of what you say. I feel like the following meme applies here:

[Ani99]

@Boscopup

Now you’re slandering the drug companies. Real people work at these companies. Real people run the trials. Doctors are involved in the trials. There are Independent Review Boards associated with the trials. Individual studies will certainly have problems (real, fallible humans are performing them), but that’s where you factor in peer review and repeatability to ferret those out. You are still following conspiracy theory instead of presenting real evidence of what you say. I feel like the following meme applies here:

These are the independent review boards lol.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/fda-and-nih-let-clinical-trial-sponsors-keep-results-secret-and-break-law
So let’s see who else is supposedly slandering the drug companies by speaking the truth.
The NIH OMG.

Pharma influence widespread at medical schools: study

Harvard University OMG

Drug Companies and Medicine: What Money Can Buy

ResearchGate OMG
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321873999_Pharma’s_Marketing_Influence_on_Medical_Students_and_the_Need_for_Culturally_Competent_and_Stricter_Policy_and_Educational_Curriculum_in_Medical_Schools_A_Comparative_Analysis_of_Social_Scientific_Res
BMC medical ethics OMG

Attitudes of medical students towards incentives offered by pharmaceutical...

Note: Google found About 479,000,000 results in 0.85 seconds

How has the drug companies shaped the medical system?
Let’s see:

AMA Journal of Ethics

Illuminating the Art of Medicine

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/pharmaceutical-industrys-role-defining-illness/2011-12 They conclude with "As the major developer of new drugs, the pharmaceutical industry unquestionably influences the process of defining illness. This influence can be positive, as when drug companies increase public awareness of disease and develop effective therapies for distressing conditions. On the other hand, the influence of the industry becomes harmful if it pushes the boundaries of illness too far in pursuit of profit. "

How about this: Drug Company Compensated Physicians Role in Causing America’s Deadly Opioid Epidemic: When Will We Learn? - PMC

Drug Company Compensated Physicians Role in Causing America’s Deadly Opioid Epidemic: When Will We Learn?

and the good doctor, the author has his photo at the end with a BIG SMILE. Wonder why?

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

Good article on the immune system at a lay person’s level:

Immunology Is Where Intuition Goes to Die

[beaglelady]

@Ani99

Cancer is an industry. And people like me who speak up about how the public story is not supported by the science are consider scum.

That’s an all-too-common conspiracy theory. Some conspiracy theorists put it like this: “Nobody is trying to cure cancer.”

Dangerous thinking indeed.

[Ani99]

@beaglelady

That’s an all-too-common conspiracy theory. Some conspiracy theorists put it like this: “Nobody is trying to cure cancer.”

Dangerous thinking indeed.

People are not convinced by what they see that is why there are conspiracy theories. In science we call such arguments “hypotheses”.
So what is dangerous about it?

[T_aquaticus]

@Ani99

People are not convinced by what they see that is why there are conspiracy theories.

People don’t like what they see, so they invent a fantasy to make the inconvenient facts go away. That is not what we call a hypothesis in science.

[beaglelady]

@Ani99

People are not convinced by what they see that is why there are conspiracy theories. In science we call such arguments “hypotheses”.
So what is dangerous about it?

They might turn from medical science and follow snake oil/voodoo cures.

[Ani99]

@MOls

@Ani99

Yes, there is going to be genetic changes that affect cell proliferation because like in wound healing / tissue regeneration, the body needs to create new tissue. There is nothing out of control about it because if it was then it would be continuous growth and that is not the case.

That is not correct. Genetic changes do not happen during normal wound healing. Wound healing is a normal tissue response where cells (like fibroblasts) move in response to signals changes that happen at the site of the wound that result in regrowth and healing of the damaged tissue.

In contrast, cancer growth is abnormal growth of tissues that fail to respond to normal cell signals, do not conform to the normal tissue structure, and fail to perform normal tissue function. In some cases that abnormal growth includes leaving the original tissue location and traveling, or metastasizing to other areas of the body. So the key feature is not necessarily rapid growth, but abnormal growth.

Unfortunately, it seems that you are partially but not fully understanding the papers and books that you have been reading, which is leading to your misunderstandings about the biology of cancer.

I did not say that there were genetic changes in wound healing. I compared wound healing and cancer for the fact that there is cell proliferation. In wound healing there is a different and temporary way to suppress the transcription factor protein TP53. In cancer a long term silencing of the TP53 is required and that is done by a genetic change. The genome is, as Dr. Barbara McClintock has shown, is highly plastic. So there are changes that can be made.
Sorry, but I am not going to give any of my own research on this forum as I have been advised that it is not the right place to do so. I want to respect the rules.