Phil. The risk elephant in the room and what we must be very aware is ADE antibody dependent enhancement. It is very possible that ADE can happen with this virus and vaccine. We have to determine that the vaccine will not result in this ADE and that requires a large number of virus challenges. It would be more than disasterous if a vaccine results in ADE which has been seen with SARS and other coronaviruses.
How are we going to be able to determine this if we don’t start vaccinating people?
I agree we have to test the vaccine and challenge them. Antibody dependent enhancement ADE is a well known effect particularly with coronaviruses. Where are the animal studies? I know what is it monkeys exaggerate and mice lie. Still they are needed.
The no brainer and which would be a highly likely event to occur is to vaccinate and then to challenge with a non SARS coronavirus cold to see how these volunteers respond. This will happen on a mass vaccination and we need to know that.
Also we should and probably will test how someone that has had the virus responds to vaccination and then again challenge with a cold coronavirus. These are likely events that we need to determine their consequences before mass vaccinations.
Google is your friend. Took me 5 seconds to find the info.
Rare adverse events aren’t going to be seen until mass vaccinations. Phase III trials with tens of thousands of people is the best we can do.
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I don’t recall which doctors but there were some that said “we don’t know what causes the cytokine storms” This indicates that it can’t be the virus. A virus is not a living entity. It is basically a chemical, either RNA or DNA short sections enveloped in a protein coat. It has no energy source and it cannot take any action of itself. So there is no way that it can “influence” the immune system in any way.
This is denial here by an M.D.
From here - YouTube This is an hour long and by a psychiatrist who made it his business to look into viruses and testing etc. It is all worth seeing but here are some disturbing comments suggesting the whole thing is a set up.
60:52 authorities are are incentivizing and pushing doctors to use take every step or opportunity possible to label a death as being caused by covet 19. i’ve even heard that they are testing some people post-mortem that were not diagnosed on their death certificate with covet 19 and if they have a positive test post mortem they’re then changing the death certificate to say covet 19 and this is in combination with other people who they suspect and then put on the death certificate that they died of covet 19 they’re being told not to perform a test on those people post-mortem so in other words only perform the test if it might increase the number of death certificates that say covet 19
but don’t do any testing if it could reduce the numbers this is preposterous. Now something else I hear is that the new guidelines cdc who say that if someone even without testing is suspected that’s the word suspected of having covet 19 a doctor can write on the death certificate covet 19. How can you suspect covet 19 when there is a plethora of other variables to the equation?
62:03 well if if the only patients in the hospital are ones that are suspected with covet 19 then essentially anyone who dies in the hospital would have that suspicion and I imagine that almost all the patients who are dying in the hospital that that gets put on their death certificate i was talking to an emt in a suburb of a major city and they were telling me that what they were instructed todo was totally change the procedure of what they do when they respond to some to a call where there’s a code like meaning someone wasn’t breathing or their heart wasn’t pumping and it used to be that they would perform cpr and wait for the paramedics
62:48 and the paramedics when they arrive they could administer drugs like advanced cardiac life-saving drugs and they would be on the phone with the doctor at the local hospital who would be looking at telemetry of the heart rhythm and vital signs and other information and they would basically perform life-saving measures until the doctor at the hospital told them either to pronounce the person dead or to bring them in the hospital for further treatment
63:15 now what happened is and this happened right at the beginning or right before the beginning of when uh this hit the city where the person was from and they were told that they were to do cpr for 20 minutes and then pronounce the person dead and this was a major major change because they didn’t have the authority to to make death pronouncements at all prior to this and you could see how their initial understanding was oh well there’s going to be a lot more calls and uh and there were um and that they need to spread out the resources but essentially what what happened is that they would arrive to the scene and find a dead body and they would just presume it must be covt 19 because that’s why else would someone die in their home we haven’t seen that before but what was actually happening is that the people that would normally go to the hospital who are sick and dying they are not allowed to go to the hospital now because the hospitals have closed all but a very few of their beds to patients that don’t have covert 19. so the people that were previously going to the hospital and would a high portion of them would die in the hospital now they’re dying at home instead
64:31 and perhaps this is actually a benefit for them because they get to die around their family members and without a bunch of needles and tubes sticking in and out of their body but nonetheless it gives the perception that more people are dying because the paramedics and emts aren’t used to arriving at a lot of dead bodies during their shift and people
in the neighborhoods are not used to seeing you know hearses pull up to their neighbor’s home to take away their dead neighbor’s body so even though there’s no change in the overall death rate or in fact it’s a little bit lower um it gives once again the perception that more people are dying because they’re dying in a place where you’re not used to seeing them
I’m sure you can find many doctors saying that the virus causes the cytokine storms. There are “theories”, which are really hypotheses. Some claim that the presence of pathogens can ignite the immune system to go berserk. Others claim that where there are no pathogens the same cytokine storms can just happen because they claim the immune system has malfunctioned!
No I won’t accept their conclusions UNLESS they show convincing evidence.
Our beliefs can and do have significant affect on our physiology. I have seen it in myself and I have seen it in others. AND I learnt about the early nocebo effects in chemo trials at university in a subject called “Psychology: current issues”. And I have since seen some doctors like Dr. Lissa Rankin mention these effects in their videos.
The early chemotherapy trials of the 1950s to about the 1970s show that. They are not reported on the internet. And of course you are going to call me a conspiracy theorist if I say that there is an agenda. And that the authorities, including the review boards are all above board etc. I explain just how much influence there is by the pharmaceutical companies here: The science behind Cancer Immunotherapy - #53 by Ani99
You are trying to say that our physiology is not affected by our thinking and beliefs. If so then you need to explain how those treated with the chemotherapy drugs in the first 50 to 60 years got well because there was no pharmacological effect of the drug on the cancers. How and why did tumors shrink at least for 5 years and in some cancer went away altogether! So you explain to me why.
The immune system cannot recognize foreign substances in blood, apparently.
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“it” in my sentence above obviously refers to the virus. The virus is a chemical, not a living entity. It has no energy source. It cannot influence the immune system. The immune system of course recognizes the foreign substance in the blood. And it will develop antibodies and go on the attack. The immune system attacks the virus and not of the healthy cells. The immune system will kill only infected cells and it will aim to destroy damaged cells to clear them away. The infected cells are a minority of the total number of cells in the area. SO there is no case to be made for the cytokine storms owing to the virus. The virus cannot cause the immune system to destroy healthy cells, which is what is seen in covid 19.
Most people who get the virus are either asymptomatic, which means their immune system has done the job quickly and easily, or the person get sick as they would with any flu virus if they get sick. IMO those who end up with covid 19, the 4-6% are not sick because of the virus. They are sick and end up with massive inflammation in the lungs and other organs owing to their reaction to ideas that they have been fed and which they have believed, i.e., that they have a deadly supremely harmful virus that is damaging their body.
The medical industry hammers the “physical causes” nail on the grounds that it is just a meat robot and disease is either damage to or a malfunction of the machine. The body is seen as a machine. And this is pushed by big pharma because it is in their economic interests to do so.
No, it doesn’t. We don’t have to know the specific immune pathways involved in order to have a general understanding that viruses cause cytokine storms.
This only demonstrates that you don’t have a basic understanding of immunology. Inert dead things can be recognized by the immune system and produce an immune response. One of the more famous examples is people developing shock-like symptoms after being injected with lipopolysaccharide, a component of bacterial cell walls.
There are tons of scientific peer reviewed papers describing how viruses cause cytokine storms, if you are actually interested in facts:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=influenza+cytokine+storm&btnG=
A psychiatrist? Seriously?
Why don’t you look up some immunologists and infectious disease docs?
Just like emergency docs tend to think it is the bullet hole in someone’s chest that killed them when they bleed out on the operating table. If someone has a SARS-COV2 infection and they die from shock and respiratory failure then its the virus. It’s super simple logic.
There are decades of research and tens of thousands of peer reviewed papers describing how viruses cause cytokine storms. All you are demonstrating is that you don’t give two hoots about evidence.
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And it’s an enormous conspiracy that every immunologist in the world disagrees with you.
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The part I saw is totally cray-cray. The sample was ample.
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An immune response, which certainly involves cytokines or signaling molecules, is NOT a cytokine storm.
Thanks Steve bad strategy to vaccinate 100 million people and Hope fort Best. That’s crazy! No one is advocating that? ADE has been identified in early animal trials. We need to test this thoroughly before mass vaccinations. As I mentioned we need to challenge vaccinated volunteers with common corona cold viruses and of course whatever the vector they are using to introduce the vaccine. We need to test vaccine on high risk exposure people ( well the Russians are vaccinating their medical people but I am sure thatvaccine is safe? ) we need a high number of exposures to assess this ADE risk.
So six monkeys is your animal trial? What else other studies are they doing? What is standard animal testing protocols for vaccine development?
An overly active and pathological immune response is a cytokine storm, by definition. It’s the same as the difference between a drizzle and a rain storm. Same processes and mechanisms, just a matter of degree.
We know that cells in different organs and immune system cells react to the presence of viruses by changing their gene expression profiles and releasing proteins that other cells can detect (i.e. cytokines). We can test for the presence of SARS-COV-2 by PCR and know that the virus is actively infecting a patient or has recently infected a patient. We see that people who are positively infected or recently infected have big changes in their cytokine profiles. Why do you refuse to follow the really obvious logical conclusion that SARS-COV-2 is causing this change in cytokine profiles?
That’s what the phase III trials are doing right now.
Why is that not you contradicting yourself.
No contradiction.
A pathogen, even a bacteria, does not influence the immune system.
The immune system recognizes the foreign pathogen/ foreign particle (virus)/ foreign protein and then moves to destroy it.
Those two sentences are in contradiction.
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If the pathogen triggers an immune response how can we say it did not influence?
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You can’t. The pathogen causes cells to change which genes are being expressed, including genes for cytokines. This is model pathway where viral proteins attach to toll-like receptors (TLR’s) and induce cytokine production.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/TLR-signaling-upon-intrinsic-cellular-defenses-Viral-ligands-are-recognized-by-each_fig2_40834564
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