I know i get a bit carried away with the legal stuff…just that when i read Revelation 14:12, its pretty clear that saints have 2 qualities…they:
keep the law
have the gospel (testimony of Jesus)
To be honest, i think that the apostle John should have written revelation 14:12 in the reverse order…i don’t yet know why he didn’t. I think the keeping of the law of love, being more like God is the fruit of our faith.
Maybe he just wrote in it the order he did because the law of Moses came before Christs gospel in Johns own life experience?
I think the transfiguration scene (not to mention the apostle John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews) are all pretty clear that it is Christ, and Christ alone that is our source of salvation. If the law was sufficient, then that could have been God’s final word to us. But it wasn’t.
No, you provided a definition and claimed it supported you. It didn’t.
The law brings death and condemnation – Paul tells us that. Allegiance isn’t about death and condemnation, it’s about life.
The Old Testament law was for Israel in the Bronze and early Iron Age. The Holy Spirit reduced it all to four admonitions, but you reject that for some reason.
No, it was adhering to the same set of standards.
I happen to be a fanatic conservative: I will not deviate from the text. But I know that that requires learning to hear the text as an ancient Israelite would have.
“Accept” is too strong: we surrender, nothing more. We were born in the Enemy’s camp, by birth at enmity with God, and the only move available to us is to just give up and let Him be Lord.
One of the most powerful illustrations of the Gospel I’ve ever heard was that of me being a rusty, dented can on a garbage heap, and a wealthy man came along, picked me up with his walking stock and took me to his home where he straightened and repaired and polished and made me new, made me something worth picking up. Until he came along, I had no worth – it is all him.
It is interesting. Ig you look up "grace you get a TV program, If you look up the meaning you get elegance and politeness. When you finally get to the grace of God it is kindness and generosity. How can Kindness be conditional? Do you give something expecting a return?
Christ teaches specifically against such a notion. “They have their reward!”
Grace is unconditional. it has to be otherwise it is not grace! Conditional is bribery or coercion. I will only forgive you if…
Rubbish!
God forgives. it is you who insists on conditions.
The Holy spirit discussion is a tough one. I have my own experiences with it. Originally I thought I was chosen by God and this reality became a nightmare for me as I only had my own truth to guide me on it and what it meant.
Basically I gave myself an inflated ego and a slow painful descend into a unforseen nightmare. I did however do my best to follow what that voice was telling me to do when I got into trouble. Cut a long story short I did ask for help and the voice told me to go to a specific church near where I lived at the time, which I begrudgingly went, but it was my 1st introduction to the biblical God, jesus and eventually the holy spirit.
My thoughts on it currently is the holy spirit is subjective as to what it is, but the results of following it is objective. I can look back at my testimony and see the results of it and the understanding of the biblical holy spirit matches up for me, but I don’t make a claim that what the holy spirit is telling me is the truth or should I say how I hear it and perceive it as truth, as it always seems to change from what I thought it was saying, to realising it was me and my deeper desires that was altering the way I was hearing it. It is a fine line, but a very interesting way of living a life in comparison to how I used to live, which was mainly through the way my peers lived or what was taught on tv on how one should live.
I am guessing that this notion of being chosen was not real? At least from the start. Once you had heard and given an understanding of Scripture , that can call you and make you feel chosen But to have it from day 1? Would put you in line with Jeremiah or David. And make you very special indeed… But, I do not get the impression that you feel that way now, or believe yourself to have been set apart by God from birth.
I have always found God to be reactive in his relationships (outside Scripture) Even when you offer Him your life He gives it back to you to muddle through. I have never seen the Holy Spirit as a puppetmaster pulling all the strings .He empowers, and encourages, offers advice and occasionally requests that you do specific things but there is always the option to say no. And this is where I come into conflict with people who rely on Scripture for their understanding of God. If you look art the way the Jews see Him, and Paul was a Jew first. God does impose Himself and have both expectations and require obedience. He also gets angry or persuasive when people “go astray” or say no (Jonah for instance). This is discipleship to the nth degree,.but in many ways it is also the slavery that Paul talks about. His people have no choice. if you are chosen then that will be you life. It is controlling and forced. Yes God could have made the whole of humanity that way but it would be empty. We would be followers out of obedience not choice. Everyone would both know and obey God…
If God was like that He would be visible. He would not be a God of faith He would be the taskmaster in the sky, ordering and expecting results. The world would be united, and orderly and "perfect* We would be the equivalent of Star Wars Storm troopers, identicle and programmed to obey.
I have free will, within the parameters of life. I choose to follow God. I am not His slave or His puppet, even if i wanted to be (which I don’t). Perhaps some people do? Well it takes all sorts I suppose., but to suggest that God would insist is to misunderstand God (IMO)
Interesting discussion. I sometimes wonder if there are parallels between how the Holy Spirit works in our lives to how Satan works. Both seem to be internal manifestations of a personal entity, both work through the actions of people rather than through their own manipulation of matter, though I suppose that is up for grabs.
Interesting question. I assume there are fundamental differences between these two, so possible similarities in the actions are limited.
The Holy Spirit has the knowledge and essence of God, which makes the work of the HS accurate, knowing and almighty. If the HS wants, his actions are not limited to speaking, He may easily perform things we call miracles, if He wants.
Satan is more restricted, limited in knowledge, locations and possible ways to act. In the case of the followers of Christ, Satan and his minions can only try to affect the person from the outside, like a person whispering to another or trying to scare another person.
One is truthful, the second the Father of lies.
Although the Holy Spirit works for the good of the person, it does not mean working for the personal satisfaction in this life. We are saved individually but thereafter, grown to serve God and other people rather than strive towards personal pleasure.
Satan tries to tempt by focusing on and promising personal benefits and satisfaction. A fairly common detail seems to be that Satan and his minions promise and makes the person feel that (s)he becomes very special, different and somehow better than the ordinary people that do not have the apparent special abilities. These promises are lies but show one difference in how the Holy Spirit vs. Satan and his minions work.
If the voice promises much personal satisfaction and a special ability and position, at the cost of the wellfare of others, there is a high probability that the voice did not come from God. Also, if the voice tells something that is clearly against the teachings in the biblical scriptures, it is probably not the voice of the HS.
No I don’t. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since my conversion. I’ll give some context to the story to make it clearer. I wasn’t brought up with any religious beliefs, just a regular guy doing regular things, but not doing them very well. Infact I seemed to be on a spiraling descent in most areas of my life. Cut the long short. I do remember one night asking God if you exist I need some help, but I wasn’t a believer I never thought about that prayer until years later.
It was however the next 6 mths after that 1 prayer when things went as bad as they have ever been for me. I eventually was removed from where I was staying and moved into my own house. It was at that time a voice in my head woke me up telling me “I’ve gotten you out of that mess, you can follow me or go back into it, choice is yours” I started following it and continue to do so 30+ yrs on.
At the time I had no idea what it was, but it was clear and definite for me in hearing it.
It didn’t take long to make my assumptions God had reached out to me and saved me from my descent, so I made up my own story as to why. This is where my inflated ego started to increase. There was certainly a thought of being chosen filtering through my thinking. There was even a moment when I was asked do I want to be the next Messiah, which I said no to. This particular question and answer may of prevented me from being one of those nutters running onto sporting events declaring themselves to be the messiah. It seemed very plausible as I look back at it, but at the time I was just trying to negotiate my way through this unknown spiritual world.
6 yrs of floating around with this new self belief eventually came crashing to the floor with a new situation rising to the surface for me to deal with. This was when I asked God what should I do. His response was to go to the church near my place. Not being a church goer ever, this was like having to swallow razor blades and went completely against the grain for me, but I went and laid some of those hidden truths on the table. That was a tough gig, but I followed what I believed needed to be said and done.
I spent 2 years there and sold my house and moved to a different area and I haven’t stepped foot in a church since, that is about 20 something yrs ago now. I had an experience in the church that rocked me pretty hard and I actually felt safer on the streets at night than what unfolded there in front of me, but that is a another story.
This has been my experience over the years. It was strictly a one on one situation. The holy spirit spoke and I listened. I didn’t always follow, but I would learn a lesson later from what decisions I made during that interaction…
On the other hand though if people experience an understanding of the holy spirit through the scripture, I’m ok with that as well. It is going to be different for everyone, so if that is how someone understands the holy spirit than that is ok as far as I’m concerned. Does it mean they are interacting with the holy spirit? I can’t answer that no more than someone answering if I am interacting with the holy spirit.
I went through a period looking for answers as to what this thing was. Was it an evolutionary development of the subconscious mind?. Once I went through a lot of information, the scriptures gave me a more clear answer to this question than other answers. The big thing though is it is a belief that I can choose to accept that it is the holy spirit that is interacting with me. That keeps that freedom of choice in my hands and not dictated to as to what this reality is.
I think the same way. I consider myself more of a student, always wanting to listen to what he is saying and this has helped me understand my flaws and weaknesses and strengths. How to apply them in real life situation [so, to a degree I am like a puppet, but it is by choice as the holy spirit isn’t a task master, but a teacher, who I am happy to follow] and evaluating the results afterwards. I also want to learn more about the holy spirit from scripture, but I find this subject one of the more difficult ones to learn, but probably the most fascinating as it has real life impact in it.
It’s kind of a mixed bag. There is still the admonition that Heliocentrism falsifies the Bible . . . but, if we are wrong then it is our fault and not the Bible’s.
“However, it is different to want to affirm that in reality the sun is at the center of the world and only turns on itself, without moving from east to west, and the earth is in the third heaven and revolves with great speed around the sun; this is a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false.
. . .
Third, I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the center of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary; and say rather that we do not understand them than that what is demonstrated is false.”
Something that people miss is that heliocentrism was the best science of the day . . . until it wasn’t. I heard a presentation by a Monsignor from the Vatican Observatory about black holes, the Big Bang, and the origin of the universe back in the late 1990s, and one of his big points was that while the Big Bang may seem to nicely fit with Genesis, it has never been a good idea to tie scripture to the science of the day, whether Aristotle’s day or ours.
Personal. It is what you need to hear. It is not what everyone needs to hear. The Bible is God’s message to everyone. The Bible – PERIOD (no you cannot make it better by rewriting it yourself). What you personally need to hear (what will get your life out of the gutter) is not necessarily even coherent to other people let alone what they need to hear. Often what others (like myself) need to hear is how it is even possible for the Bible to make any sense at all – and only “gutter” in which we have been in is being raised by atheists to see all this religious stuff as trash and nonsense.
So would “the law” being so referenced there be referring to Christ’s law of love? Or to the whole canon of Jewish law - that same body of law that Paul (and I think Peter too) referred to as “that which even we Jews have been unable to keep…”? I think I’ll take the side of Peter, Paul, John (in his gospels and in Revelation), the entire book of Hebrews, as well as Christ. But if all of them got it wrong, and you, Adam, know something that apparently escaped all of them … well … best wishes to you.
I do not believe that you have correctly interpreted the New Testament statements about the law and Salvation.
Note what Christ actually said as recorded in the Gosple of Luke…
Luke 11:46 New International Version (NIV)Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Note the following passages from the book of Hebrews…
9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
The bible has never demanded that anyone is saved by keeping the law. It actually says, we are incapable of keeping the law and therefore are condemned because of our failure.
Now before you bring up the old vs new convenants…note the following NEW TESTAMENT statements about Old Testament faith and salvation…
Galatians 3:6: “So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness””
James 2:23: “And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God”
belief is an act of faith is it not? Some may argue they are different things…however, the interesting thing is, if Abraham believed because of evidences before him, then those evidences are by association the same as the New Testament evidences, because Christ and the apostles referred to the Old Testament scriptures in order to justify their position. Note the text about the Berean Jews…
Acts 17:11Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
All of this tells me that the two covenants are actually the same. It is the one making the promise that is different. Old Covenant = people made the promise to follow the law…New Covenant = God makes the promies to write his laws on our hearts and in our minds (the law is in both promises!)
So why the difference?
Also, note what the new testament says about that…
Romans 2:15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
There is another text about this, however, the point is, by God writing his laws on our hearts and in our minds, we are without excuse!
So far so good. But why are you leaving out Paul’s most emphatically stated points in the Galatians passage? Did you read the rest of that chapter? Here is how it begins.
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
And all through that chapter too, Paul makes it pretty clear how he feels about “those Judaizers” who want to make the new fledgling gentile Christian life all about the old law - or even just trying to impose it as an important add-on!
Old wineskins are just not sufficient to hold the new wine, Adam! I think I’ll continue to take my cues on that from Peter, Paul, John, the old testament prophets, and finally - the only one that really matters: Christ himself. It isn’t about being lawless - of course not! It’s about following Christ’s higher law - the law of love.
You onky have to read Romans to see the fallacy of relying on “the Law”. The purpose of the Law was overturned by Christ Himself and Paul confirms it with 1 Cor 13. Laws can be broken or be insufficient, or be “bent”. You can obey the letter of the law and be breaking the spirit of it or the intent. That is why we have lawyers.
The principle of Love encapsulates all of the Law and more. If you love you cannot do the things that are specified as wrong and your behaviour will be what God wants.
Amen, to that, though I would probably choose a different word than “overturned”. Fulfilled, might be better? As in Christ finished what the law couldn’t do. And furthermore, the law is no longer needed as any kind of path or prerequisite for knowing Christ. So maybe “overturned” isn’t a bad choice after all. But at least the law had the same aim in mind … Our righteousness… Even if it was powerless to bring us there. That takes Christ, and Christ alone! So in that sense, Christ fulfills the aim of the law, and became the sufficiency that replaced the law’s insufficiency. And when ‘the perfect’ arrives, that which is partial and insufficient … disappears. (from the 1 Cor 13 passage.) Of course, we are still in an “already but not yet” age in that regard. Hence our need to not think we are just “above all law” now - even the old one. But we are and always will be under the law of love.
Or superseded. I once heard a sermon by the great Lutheran Hour preacher Oswald Hoffman about Christ breaking the law – not by violating it, but by rising above it, doing what it could never do, effectively leaving it in the dust.
The law is like a ladder that’s too short – it aims in the right direction, but there’s no point in keeping it set up and trying to climb it when someone provides you with an automatic lift!
Right. The ladder indicated the direction to go – up! – which points to the value of the automatic lift, but once you have been given that lift the ladder is just baggage.
Beautifully phrased.
While the law belongs to the “not yet” age. It reached towards the “already”, but was for a given situation and thus our lessons must never be drawn from it literally but must be the way that Paul shows, drawing principles.