Which we see through a glass darkly, as the apostle wrote. That is why Augustine and others (who was that Cardinal – Bellarmine?) admonished Christians that when science clearly shows something then insisting the scriptures say otherwise is foolish.
2 Likes
Psalms are a collection of diverse writings/songs. Especially the fourth book (/section), Psalms 90-150 includes mainly general Psalms. I was mainly thinking some Psalms in the first and second books (/sections) that have been written after very specific situations in the life of David or other writers and telling about the stressed feelings in those situations + demanding or predicting the violent destruction of those who opposed and persecuted.
I do think that we can learn much even from these Psalms but they seem to be very human and personal. That forms an interesting combination and question of what comes from the human mind and what are the words of the Holy Spirit (God) within the writing?
I do not think that we can use science to identify what comes from the Holy Spirit and what comes from a human mind, at least until we can develop a device for it - probably never.
However, our interpretations about the biblical scriptures are very seldom, if ever, talk of the Holy Spirit. Assuming that the biblical scriptures and ‘the book of creation’ are both from God, in some situations we can utilize the information in ‘the book of creation’, nature, to estimate whether an interpretation is likely to be true. If the interpretation about some biblical scriptures is in conflict with the reality around us, ‘the book of creation’, there are good reasons to suspect that the interpretation is not true.
1 Like
your dilemma here is knowing the difference.
Given you made no mention of Satan, only that individuals claim to have been instructed by the Holy Spirit, i challenged your claim on the grounds that you did not appropriately address the real dilemma that humanity faces…temptation from the devil. He communicates directly with us!
one of the really big problems with Theistic Evolution is the notion that Satan cannot actively engage in our reality. That he cannot interact with science. That is a delusion. The story of Job proves its a delusion (as does the temptation of Christ).
The other issue is that for all the bells and whistles, TEism is stuck in a works based theology…that is because they cannot shake the evolutionary claim that life is getting better of its own accord without God…it is the result of science! I say bull on that one because its not what the bible teaches.
the point has gone over your head. Its a shame you dont understand the problem there.
I can only suggest that you go back and read the post that i responded to regarding Psalms…perhaps after considerable thinking you might eventually work it out?
Perhaps you might consider Nadab and Abihu…it appears that Gods patience ran out, his standards clearly implemented…and immediate death was the result!
Just in case you think that can’t happen in the New Testament…may i remind you of Ananias and Saphira (Acts Chapter 5)
So God is more like a mere mortal, then? No infinite patience or grace or love to be found there either, but just like us - there is only so much in the barrel, and once it’s exhaused, God is done; his love defeated? That god looks a lot more like a mere mortal than like the God of Christ.
As has been observed: you know somebody has made up their own god when that god hates all the same people they do.
1 Like
Our perspective is different because our interpretation of the scriptures is different.
We both believe in God but I try to understand the scriptures as they were written, as messages to the original receivers, while you treat the texts as they were written to a reader with a modern worldview. As the worldview and questions of the original receivers were different than those of a modern reader, the two approaches will lead to different conclusions.
2 Likes
Who said that God is not interacting with science and Satan is not also interacting with so-called Christians? Science cures diseases and deals with world hunger and YEC in it’s current incarnation is new and false.
1 Like
I know you have a good heart, Adam. Our God is an awesome God, isn’t He. I think my attitude is much different from those people.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him…for He knows our frame… He remembers that we are dust.
Thanks. Have a good afternoon
2 Likes
I don’t think that last statement can be established from the scriptures.
Nor do I think that Satan is our real dilemma: our true dilemma is within us, an old man that was buried with Christ through Baptism yet who still hangs around and influences us because he is part of our very flesh. That’s the dilemma of which Paul wrote:
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
That dilemma is always with us. Satan, OTOH, is a single creature – he is not omnipresent, he is not omniscient, he cannot read our minds, he can only be in one place at a time and deal with one situation at a time. Sure, he has minions, but they serve him poorly, being as likely to follow their own inclinations as to adhere to any plan by their supposed master.
“Theistic evolution . . . holds that natural selection is one of the mechanisms with which God directs the natural world.” – Britannica
" Theistic evolution (also known as theistic evolutionism or God-guided evolution), alternatively called evolutionary creationism, is a view that God acts and creates through laws of nature."
– Wikipedia
Then there’s this:
TE doesn’t contain “the notion that Satan cannot actively engage in our reality” – it doesn’t care about Satan.
TE has no theology – read the definitions above again – except the assertion that God created the world.
Evolutionary theory makes no such claim; it only says that life gets more fit, which cannot be equated to “better” – under ET, a human is no “better” than a tardigrade, indeed the tardigrade may actually be “better” in terms of evolution since they can survive in far more environments than humans can (unless humans apply heavy-duty technology).
Um, no, theistic evolution says exactly the opposite, that all life is created by God.
Um, no – science doesn’t cause anything, it is a method and practice of study; science only results in something if humans decide to make us of what has been learned – that’s called “applied science”.
2 Likes
Wow – seriously? Someone shares an experience of spiritual growth and your response is to attack? As someone who almost got an education degree, I have to say that given this I would not trust you around children!
Very bad exegesis as well: neither text is about patience from God or anyone for that matter.
And a fallen mortal, at that!
Or has done what J. B. Phillips called putting God in a box.
no…what it means is that God has expectations and the grace he offers is conditional and most definitely, as in the days of the flood of Noah, has a finite time period attached. Take the story of the ten virgins for example…they slumbered and slept, some had spare oil, and others did not. Those who did not have spare oil were locked out of the wedding!
the reason why the above is so important is because humanity has this demonstrated habit of attempting to place our own morality on what God would/should do. Noah’s flood proved that habit is totally wrong!
The God we know, and His expectations are very clearly outlined in both Testaments of the Bible.
New Testament proponents would have us believe that the God of the Old Testament made mistakes, that he was too harsh or that we were too legalistic…that isn’t the correct theology. The God of the Old Testament explains to us the reality of what happens to sinners and sin unless they choose the Gospel. Christ showed us the Gospel, yes, but the interesting thing is, that Adam and Eve were foretold of all of that when they were arraigned in Genesis chapter 3.
The reason why the gospel was taken to the Gentiles, was because the Israelites failed to do with it what was asked of them in the Old Testament. They were supposed to be a shining light to the rest of the world and preach the word of God. They did not do this, then they (the hierarchy of the Jewish faith/culture) crucified the messiah in order to protect their previous error and current way of life. We can play games over who would have killed Christ if not the Jews…i don’t think attempting to do that makes any difference to be honest…Satan would have found another way to kill Him no doubt.
The reason for Christ’s coming was not evolutionary…it was not a timed event aimed at finally showing mankind how to be good because prior to that he was too primitive to understand…The Old Testament account shows quite clearly that isn’t the case because if it were true, punishment would not have been applied to stupid minds…we don’t lop the heads off animals or stone animals to death because they don’t understand God’s laws! The Bible makes it quite clear (in both Testaments) that we are judged on what we know. If humanity were too primitive, then the judgement would be according to our state of mind My argument against your likely rebuttal on this point would be …careful you don’t cross the line in the sand into racism against modern cultures less advanced than us and how they would be judged in a modern world.
According to John 3 we are judged on our allegiance – no more and no less.
1 Like
absolutely…but what is allegiance and what are the implications of it?
well there’s this…
I like how you straw pluck there St Roymond…however, I’m not that easily disuaded from my thought process.
The google dictionary makes it quite clear that allegiance is conditional on following the law…" swearing allegiance to the desires/wishes of the republic!"
Attempting to use humanism arguments are not going to work. Atheism is actually equally legalistic…if not more so than religion. I should point out that it is religion that set the process of eliminating slavery in motion…not humanism’s morality.
It doesn’t say anything about law – that’s your insertion, arising with your fascination with law.
In fact allegiance can result in opposition to the law – for example, the American Revolution came about because the people were loyal Englishmen and the law wasn’t treating them that way. More pointedly, Paul’s allegiance to Jesus brought him to break laws.
Which has nothing to do with John 3 – where did you pull this out of?
your understanding of scripture is the problem here…read my post again and go through it slowly so you get the progression.
You are the one who brought up the word “ALLEGIENCE”.
I showed you what that word actually means…now you do not understand the link between allegiance and the law?
Your example about the American Revolution is irrelevant…that is simply swearing allegiance to a different set of standards…the meaning of the word doesnt change!
Ok…lets move away from stupidity and onto the crux of my point in relation to this thread…
I think my point is, despite the idea that we should ask ourselves"what would God do", we must be careful in ensuring that we know enough about God, from His own writings, so that we listen to the correct “still small voice” whispering in our ear. Satans temptation of Eve and again of Christ proves that he also mascerades as an angel of light…his own version of that still small voice…and he will willingly uses the same arguments Eve heard in the garden of Eden.
UPDATE
One good thing to come out of this criticism you raise St Roymond is that yin this discussion with you, I have been reminded of the seriousness of the Temptation of Christ and I’m actually really grateful for your indirectly leading me into this next point…
As a young man growing up the church, my parents would often read bible books to me…and i recall regularly the stories about the temptation of Christ. In those books, it is so often portrayed in a delightful manner and the seriousness of the story i believe is lost…it’s presented in such a beautiful manner that we are led into thinking it was no big deal.
The reality is i think, Satan tempted Christ because he genuinely believed he could convince Christ to succumb to the temptation. I don’t think i have truly recognised how significant the temptation of Christ really was or the efforts Satan went to in order to convince Christ to fall. I would like to add a new thread about that on these forums, i believe it is an opportunity for us to put our own reasoned thoughts into one of the most significant events in all of the Bible.
Believe it or not St Roymond, i listen to a lot of what you say and you have been an important guide on my journey on these forums…please don’t underestimate your witness to me there. To be honest, i have a hard time reconciling that any of this God thing is even true…i really do. However, through the efforts of individuals like yourself on these forums, i am challenged daily to defend my faith. In doing that, i am often presented with evidence that requires fundamental change in the way i think and believe…the comfort that i have is in knowing that there are Christians who do not believe as i do who are able to remain comfortable with the notion of God despite my own misgivings about the chances God even exists. I want you to know that what you do here is extremely important even to me…a person who seems to be such a conservative and so strong in his ideas.
The truth is, when i look at that massive horizon, up into the atmosphere, into the universe at night, i cannot reconcile the idea that one day a man will come in those clouds and raise dead people from the gave from thousands/millions of years ago, and those of us alive when it happens…i really cant!
1 Like
So … works-based salvation then. And grace isn’t grace. Interesting.
oh no no no that’s not at all what i mean.
What i am saying is that grace is conditional in that “we must accept it solely on faith”!
1 Like
Ok - that sounds better.
1 Like