The Holy Spirit

Faith & Science Conversation
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So one thing I don’t understand about Christianity right now is the concept of the Holy Spirit and what it’s suppossed to be doing. I have had the Holy Spirit speak to me in the past but it was on rare occasions that it was very clear. My problem is that every Christian and their mother claim to be hearing from the Holy Spirit that’s guiding them into all truth, “The Holy Spirit impressed upon me this. The Holy Spirit told me that” blah blah bah etc. and yet none of these people agree with each other, which is why there’s so many Christian denominations, and what they say can often be proven wrong by objective reality. The excuse these people give for this is that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, but not this other person because they’re rightious and standing in the truth and everyone else is a heretic.

Honestly, I agree with Dr. Ben Stanhope on this in the video below.

But why are these people claiming to hear from God all a big cluster you know what? What is the Holy Spirit’s role in guiding people to truth?

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Are you interested in the theology of the Holy Spirit or are you leaning towards the question of how people use the Holy Spirit to justify their beliefs and actions? (The latter one has more to do with neurophysiology and psychology than theology.)

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Both. I am interested in both.

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I’ve just finished watching the video you posted, and I found it really well thought out and well presented.

You might think that because I’m a mystic and can hear Mother Father God clearly I would be siding with the group that believes the Holy Spirit is one’s own personal bible commentary. In fact, I agree with everything Dr. Stanhope says about using the best research materials available (most of which have only come to light in recent decades) and not relying on Spirit’s words as your only approach to learning.

I agree so strongly that, a few years into my mid-life journey of faith through mysticism, I enrolled in a Master of Divinity program at a reputable Canadian university so I could learn the tools of biblical exegesis. It’s not enough to be a mystic or to be able to hear God or God’s angels. You have to create a framework of knowledge inside your biological brain if you want to be able to hear what God is actually trying to say. Otherwise, you can’t pick up the messages. This is because the messages aren’t magic – they’re science.

So, with prompting from God and my angelic guides, I study as widely as possible. I read about archaeological findings. I visit museums and cathedrals, both of which give you a greater sense of our ancestors’ needs and priorities. I watch news reports about current events. I enjoy well crafted films because they have questions and insights about human nature. And so on. All these bits and pieces of knowledge and experience from other human beings help “close the gaps” in my brain networks so that my biological brain can process what God is saying to me.

Sometimes I get a strong sense that God has something really important to tell me, but then it takes me years – years! – to gather enough puzzle pieces of knowledge for me to begin to understand. I’m not a particularly patient person, but I’ve had to learn to practise patience because the message is so complex. There’s no place in this process for assuming that the first thing you hear from Spirit is the right thing or the only thing you need to know!

As an example of what I mean, I’ve been slogging away for years on the question of gravity and why it doesn’t mesh easily with other theories in physics. God has been very, very patient with me and always finds ways to bring information to my attention. My part is to accept that I know almost nothing and to trust that eventually the puzzle pieces will start to make sense. Well, some of them, anyway!

So if you want to work with Spirit, there are ground rules that come not from human teachers but from God.

You can’t assume God will toss terabytes of insight into your head. You can only go as fast as your biological brain will let you go. That means respecting the laws of neuroscience – for example, you have to build networks in your brain, and building networks takes (1) weeks of time (2) good nutrition to build new cells (3) good sleep habits so your brain can do its housekeeping jobs while you sleep (4) reduced stress levels (because sustained levels of stress hormones interfere with the brain’s ability to grow new neurons and glial cells and (5) patience! (There are some other helpful practices, too, but, you know, there’s such as thing as overreaching!)

You have to accept that you’ll make mistakes along the way – lots of mistakes. God forgives you when you make mistakes, but if you refuse to accept personal responsibility for your own errors, and if you think it’s stupid to learn from your own mistakes, it’s much harder to hear what God is saying.

You also have to accept that, as a child of God, you’re not a piece of junk full of sin. Nothing will block you as deeply in your relationship with God as a belief that you’re not worthy of all this divine help. You are worthy. This is often the most challenging step for people who want to work with Spirit as Spirit intends.

What does Spirit intend? Spirit intends that you have the chance as a human being to learn more about Divine Love and Forgiveness, more about the ways in which you can help your family and community with your unique talents, more about the perils and the praises of using your Free Will.

It may not sound like much, but it’s the work of a lifetime.

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That’s a grad-school level presentation! Superb!

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O wow.

You need an understnding of science (who cannot see God) to understand God.

Hmm.

I would suggest that there is a difference between the underlying messafg of Scripture (and Christianity) and specific influences of the Holy Spirit.

I guess you can “judge” a claim about Holy Spirit instruction by wieghing it against Scripture but even then that assumes you have fully understood Scripture.

It wold be naive to think that every claim about the Holy Spirit’s influence are accrate and correct.

I would also suggest that there is no conclusive modus opperandi for the Holly Spirit (God)

All we can do is take each example in its own merit and weigh it against our understanding of God. We may occasionally get it wrong (because we are wrong?) but it would be a fair yardstick

And remember Jesus’ cautions about both judgement in general and judging the Holy Spirit specifically.

Richard

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Hi Richard,

l think perhaps I didn’t express myself clearly enough. I was talking specifically about how human brains are able to process messages that come directly from Spirit or God or angelic guides. This kind of connection with Spirit goes by various names – intuition, divine guidance, mysticism – but all of the shades and variations of these intuitive experiences rely directly on scientific principles involving the biological brain.

I don’t mean (and I’m sorry if I implied) that you have to understand all the science in order to understand God. I mean you have to respect the fact that God uses scientific principles in order to connect with the thoughts and feelings of human beings. Since it’s your biological brain that’s in the middle between God and your consciousness, you must involve your brain in the process of listening to God. There’s no getting around this scientific reality.

Can God communicate with us in other ways? Of course. There are external messages that come to us all the time. There are synchronicities. Strange moments of meaningful timing. Vivid dreams. The perfect song at the perfect time. Meetings with strangers. Opening a book to the page that has the insight you need right then. And so on.

But my post here was directed at the question of how human beings intuit messages from the Holy Spirit (that’s neuroscience). Secondarily, there’s the question of how human beings use the information they intuit (that’s religion and psychology).

I said nothing in my post about the specific information Spirit conveys to individuals. I said that, in a general way, Spirit wants us to learn more about Divine Love and Forgiveness, but that’s pretty general. Each individual will have his or her own pathway to this learning, and Spirit always knows what’s best for each person. We’re all unique.

But this doesn’t mean Spirit conveys intuitive messages to some people through their right hand and some people through their magical left toe and some people through their liver. Intuition (by which I mean messages with an “aha” feeling of insight, not just a vague sense of warning) is a neuroscientific principle that involves the brain and the central nervous system.

Everyone is born with intuitive circuitry, but not everyone keeps it as they grow up. The intuitive network of the brain can be altered by many biological factors, just as other brain networks (e.g. the interoception network) can be changed over time (for good or for ill).

Yes, as you say, we have to take the examples that come our way and do our best to weigh them, even though we may sometimes get it wrong. But to do that weighing, we have to use our biological brains. So to make life easier, if you look after your brain as summarized above, you have a better chance of being able to weigh, discern, and use your own Free Will in loving ways.

God has guided human beings towards many scientific advances that have improved the lives of countless people. All I’m saying is that our biology is part that process of education and discernment. We might be less confused and frustrated about our relationship with God if we were to accept the scientific reality of our own brains and bodies.

Edit: If this were not so – if it were God’s true intention that we bypass the science of our brains and bodies – I doubt we’d have so many admonitions from Jesus in the Gospels (and especially in Mark) that call for us to live with each other and serve each other in community (i.e. not live in isolation), to help widows and orphans (building on Jewish practice), to eat and walk and live a modest life of balance, to reject status addiction, to love and forgive – all of which have been shown by neuroscientists and physicians (many of them non-believers) to have demonstrable, lasting effects on physical health and mental health.

In other words, we’re meant to integrate the various aspects of lives – spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional – and use everything God has given us (minds, bodies, hearts, souls) so we can learn more about God’s great love for all Creation.

Integration brings us closer to God. Dividing ourselves from our very own inner selves creates a sense of brokenness in our relationship with God and each other.

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I have been reading Psalms during the last days and these have nicely lifted up how the Holy Spirit can speak and act through ordinary humans.

Psalms should be a collection of songs but if you read them carefully, they are not like typical modern Christian songs. They are more like written expressions of the feelings and thinking of the writers, often in very specific and stressful situations, followed by praising of God after He helped. Very human and personal. Yet, among all this human and personal writing, there are passages that have been later understood as prophetic, often Messianic messages - passages that are seen as the word of God, also by Jesus. Ordinary people in front of and in cooperation with God, who is Spirit.

When the Holy Spirit speaks today in practical church life, it is often very similar. Much human, personal thinking but Holy Spirit can give (usually short) messages to particular situations. These messages tend to hit to the core of the problem and often opens the understanding of the person who receives the message in a way that alters his/her thinking and often leads to a change in behaviour.

As my writing above shows, I do believe that the Holy Spirit acts and speaks, both in history and today. Yet, if I hear someone speak continuously “Holy Spirit told me …”, I become suspicious. Maybe someone has such a close relationship with God that the Holy Spirit speaks to him/her every day. Sadly, too often such speaking only demonstrates that the person cannot identify and separate the talk of the Holy Spirit from all other sources. The subconscious thinking of human brains is then understood as the talk of the Holy Spirit, even if God has not told anything. Such misunderstandings are sad and usually harmful, even if the ideas in the talk would be basically sound.

Especially if someone repeatedly claims in a prophetic way “Thus says the Lord …”, my warning lights start to blink. It is quite probable that the message is not pure talk from God but, in the best case, a mixture of what the Holy Spirit reveals and subjective flavour and ideas of the human. In the worst case, it is pure imagination that has nothing to do with the talk of the Holy Spirit.

When we are speaking about the interpretation of the biblical scriptures, the messages of the Holy Spirit may guide towards reading the scriptures. Then, in suitable moments, passages of the scriptures may pop up in the mind and give insight to what the person has been wondering.
It is probably very, very rare that the Holy Spirit would start a personal bible class, explaining how particular chapters should be interpreted. I have not heard of a single reliable case. It is much more likely that God would direct the person to another Christian who knows the scriptures and can explain them.

Edit:
I wrote my comment before watching the video of Ben Stanhope. I think the video was fine - I agree with it.

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Although I think I get where you are coming from, I just think it is over analysis. I don’t have to know how the eyes proces images to see and understand what I am looking at.

I am sorry, but i am getting a little tire of the mighty science. Don’t get me wrong I am not anti-science, but i am anti essential science.as in, everything deppends on it.

Takiing what i started with further, we donot need to understand how the lectricity comes to our house, or how the communication network functions, and boy am i fed up with midern security mania, (io metrics are fine until you die, and then what? whoever is exacuter has a nightmare just finding your will)

This world is techno mad, and too reliant on it…Yes we are biological beings but that is enough science for religion.

Rant over

Richard

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Ha! I’m kind of a Luddite myself, and I totally get your rant!

I’m trying to pass along some of what I’ve learned in the hope that some people may benefit from my mistakes. But if it’s not your thing, no worries!

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Thanks, @Clovis_Merovingian . I really appreciated your video.

I like “Decision Making By the Book,” by Haddon Robinson of Radio Bible Class. We studied it as a Sunday School group. He points out that most of the time, God expects us to use brains and learning to make good decisions, based on the morality He taught us. I think that also supports the importance of studying, to show ourselves approved. Jesus even quoted Rabbi Hillel

Thanks.

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From C. S. Lewis:
Different, certainly higher, a better symptom; yet also leading to a more terrible sin. For it encourages a man to think that his own worst passions are holy. It encourages him to add, explicitly or implicitly, “Thus saith the Lord,” to the expression of his own emotions or even his own options; as Carlyle and Kipling and some politicians, and even, in their own way, some modern critics, so horribly do. (It is this, by the way, rather than mere idle “profane swearing” that we ought to mean by “taking God’s name in vain.” The man who says, “■■■■ that chair!” does not really wish that it should first be endowed with an immortal soul and then sent to eternal perdition.)

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Yes. Very well put! Thank you.
My mother in law attended a very conservative Bible college for a year (she gave it up). A young man there told her that God had said they should wed. She replied, “He didn’t tell me!”.

I’ve mentioned this also in the past, but it’s rather off putting to hear someone say that “God led me to set up a new church”–especially if in doing so, they left a former church, of people who really liked them (on the other hand, if not, maybe it’s a relief). Thus started a lot of new denominations, I guess.

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Like Psalm 29 right? (Hopefully you recognise the dilemma that psalm presents your world view with)

Going back to the O.P.

Read the story of Elijah…particularly whnj he ran from.Jezebel after killing the prophets of Baal. Elijah only came out of the cave when he heard the “still small voice”

That was the Holy Spirit. He didnt hear God in the roarof events prior to the small voice…that tells us, the Holy Spirits guidance is recognisable in the scriptures. If the leading of the Holy Spirit isnt scriptural, if it corrupts or conflicts with scripture, then its of the devil. The temptation of Christ comes to mind at this point. Those temptations were anti scriptural and Christ knew it and quoted scripture in defeating the devil.

So to say understanding whether or not one is being led by the Holy spirit is scientific? Knowing/testing Gods biblical truth is 100% theological.

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Yeah but ultimately what’s true is true, and objective reality doesn’t care about your spiritual feelings. God is not a man that he should lie, so if your still small voice is lying I attribute it to Satan or gas and not the Holy Spirit. If the still small voice said the moon was made from cheese you can’t really refute that from scripture. If the still small voice says the earth is flat you cannot refute that from scripture either but they are lies and are not from God.

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Im not.going into the flat earth conspiracy here…thats a side issue already addressed elsewhere on these forums…i have presented evidence refuting that already and there are plenty of decent scholarly youtube videos that address that nonsense.

For starters…roman pantheon dome designs of Christ’s time are proof that the world already was well aware the earth wasnt flat…so even in the secular world there are conflicting beliefs surrounding flatearthism…the claim is historically and theologically false.

Your statememt God doesnt lie…you have ignored the evidence i presented…satan most definitely does lie and in the example.i gave you, he pretended to be an angel of light offering Christ an “easy way out” of the impending crucifixion that our saviour was well aware awaited him just 3.5 years later. Christ, even in moments of extreme dehydration and lack of.food, recognised who he was via his unbiblical words

Satan said to Christ…" all this i will give to.you if you will just bow down before me"

To which Christ responded with the first and second commandments…

Thou shalt have no other Gods before me…you shall not bow down to them

It is a fools errand to believe that it is only.God communicates via the Holy Spirit.

Kind Saul was deeply troubled by evil spirits for most of his reign…it was this that drove him to the witch of Endor and to believe that the individual she claimed to be talking with on his behalf was really the prophet Samuel. It was not Samuel, it was an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel. We know this because the bible very specifically tells us, "The dead know nothing and for them there is no more reward.

i think you need to rethink your belief there.

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That’s my point. God doesn’t lie but Satan does. So if someone claims to be speaking to me by the Holy Spirit and what they’re saying just isn’t true, I can dismiss them out of hand. They’re lying, or what speaks to them is lying.

I don’t need to rethink anything. I will not believe lies and call it piety.

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So, this is really a difficult situation. I remember in college, talking to some respected Christian elders, and also remember in my elementary school-- how both said that God’s truth is absolute truth, and nothing that we discover can contradict it.

I talked with my college professor, who was a bit of an agnostic, about it. He very kindly and humbly said, “But then, how can we talk about anything?”

That reminded me that God looks at our hearts.

I think that is when I started having the courage to decide what I could. It gave me faith to believe that God doesn’t hold us to a standard that we can’t follow. He also seems to have a lot more patience than I do.

Thanks.

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I don’t think it’s really difficult. It’s the easiest thing in the world. If it isn’t true don’t believe it. I believe fully that Christianity and the Bible rightly interpreted completely lines up with truth. God says in the Bible that he is truth and that he cannot lie, so if it’s a lie it’s from Satan or its from a human. Either way, disregard.

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