The foundation of our Christian faith is the bible (God's word)


(Wookin Panub) #62

He was not taken out of context. Andy’s entire history was taken into account. When a man like Rob Bell likes what you have to say. Those are warning signs. Andy takes a natural view of scripture. In a sense, what he does, is start with apologetics and then uses scripture when needed. My camp does the opposite. When you use a tactic that caters to the unbelievers making them the judge of scripture. That is not wise. And that’s the problem with Arminianism thinking.

(1 Corinthians 1:18) “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”


(Christy Hemphill) #63

eye roll

That is not how I judge the merit of someone’s argument. What is that? The Facebook fallacy?

Andy Stanley correctly pointed out the we are Christians not Biblians. Christ is at the center of our faith.


(Wookin Panub) #64

Calvinists are 21st century thinkers??? LOL

I believe in double predestination, that God is king and in His sovereignty chooses who He wants for salvation and leaves the rest alone. Try preaching that God to this 21st century self absorbed, victimology, equal rights America we see today.

From looking at scripture. Theistic evolution violates the very character and nature of God.


(Wookin Panub) #65

Explain to me what Godly faith is, but you can’t use scripture? You can’t throw out words as if you knew them without using scripture.

There are no lost books of the bible.


(Wookin Panub) #66

That is a strawman


(Wookin Panub) #67

Actually when I started to learn how to think is when I had to jettison evolution in its entirety, especially theistic evolution


(Christy Hemphill) #68

How so? This whole thread is you claiming the Bible is the foundation of our faith, not Christ. How am I arguing against an argument no one is making, (straw man) when I am just basically repeating what you said in your OP?


(Mervin Bitikofer) #69

Ahhh – here I think we finally see your true starting point. Your take on scriptures and everything else will be forced to conform accordingly to your own “infallible” assessment of this issue.


(Wookin Panub) #70

I heard a man preach that people such as I preach a lie, saying, that scripture is the only way we could listen to God. He said, that is a LIE! All you have to do is sit quietly and wait for the voice of God to speak to us… Tell me, how does one know if it is the voice of God? As you say, you are a Christian. How do you even know that?


(Wookin Panub) #71

I am quite fallible, my friend. I am always willing learn and change. I love learning new things.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #72

I forgot to reply to this of yours several posts back … and it is a good question.

Perhaps motivated by this passage from Ephesians 2:

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. [my emphasis added]

I think this may be your best scripture-based response to defend your case here. And yes, these testimonies can be seen in foundational terms as indeed Paul portrays them here. He also makes sure that Christ is still pre-eminent in the comparison, though. Never does he let the position of Christ get usurped as the aligning reality – the cornerstone of said foundation. So I don’t think this undoes what others here are arguing: that Christ first and foremost is our foundation. But it does illustrate that how much we want to shift various things back and forth between being “important edifice” vs. being “foundational” in this metaphor can be a fairly fluid exercise according to one’s rhetorical needs. What isn’t fluid is Christ’s preeminence.

[clarifying edits]


(Wookin Panub) #73

That is because 1) you don’t agree in how I interpret scripture etc… and 2) I am playing the devil’s advocate. To be honest it is difficult to not say, that Christ is the foundation of our faith, but then I have to take into account that one can’t know who God is without scripture. This issue is more a feeling out for me.


(Wookin Panub) #74

Do you believe that the bible is the word of God? yes or no


(Mervin Bitikofer) #75

Nobody here is calling scripture unimportant, so I’m not sure who you are continuing to answer in this way. I agree with you that my knowledge of Jesus would be either incomplete or even nonexistent without scriptures. Nor would my knowledge of God amount to much anything without my parents … or without my local church … but that doesn’t mean my parents or my local church are now the foundation of my faith!

It is precisely because we can read scriptures that we look who they point at: Christ. And once he is gained, the road signs that helped get us home --while still helpful and instructive, are nevertheless of secondary importance.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #76

No. I side with John 1:1 on this one … and it is not referring to any law or prophets or printed words as being God’s Word. It unmistakably refers to God’s Word as being alive before any of this ever got printed up. And he walked among us in the flesh.

[clarifying edit … I gave a simplistic ‘no’ above so that you would not miss the point. That does not mean however that I don’t occasionally use of the common shorthand of referring to the Bible as God’s word because I do believe that God speaks to us through its pages. But the moment I place these printed words in front of Christ, is the moment I’ve created an idol, and indeed a stumbling block.]


(Wookin Panub) #77

I think you went too far with that statement.


(Wookin Panub) #78

And there lies the rub. Coupled with “secondary importance” is where theistic evolutionists fall off the rails.

John 10:35 English Standard Version (ESV)
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Luke 24:44-45, “Now He said to them, ‘These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.’ 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.”

What scripture? The Law (Moses), the Prophets, and the Psalms.


(Luca) #79

So you stopped accepting evolution because it clashed with your interpretation of the Bible despite there being tons of evidence for evolution than against? (I would even say there is no evidence against evolution.) That is far from true rational thought.


(Wookin Panub) #80

I never said that. I said I believed in evolution, only, because I was taught it, and really had no clear firm grasp of the bible at that time. When I started to study scripture. I realized that there was zero hint of evolution in scripture and that it violated the very character and nature of God, which is why I had to throw it out. Furthermore that “tons of evidence” is merely tons of presuppositions.


(Mervin Bitikofer) #81

Uh-huh! Very good. And what did these apostles proceed to do with this new scriptural insight as the fledgling church got underway? There were two major streams of thought – one was the Jewish Christians for whom the law and the prophets were very important indeed … so important in fact, that they pushed for new gentile Christians to become followers of all these important laws themselves. But other apostles disagreed (and prevailed), saying that there was now a new priority in town … and his name is Christ. The main importance the “old word” still had now was in how it pointed the way toward the new wine.

Which of these two kinds of apostles do you think were enjoying the more accurate insight into the place of scriptures, Wookin?