I am not a physician nor a scientist so I’m probably speaking a lot of nonsense but isn’t it true that if God can have influence on Quantum Mechanics he can do anything? Like passing through walls, changing matter into different forms, seemingly creating it from nothing(but not really).
Then there can be an argument that God created universe that can support his actions without breaking it’s laws when needed. After all everything can happen on quantum scale if luck is on your side.
I mean that is just my interpretation how could God do all this crazy stuff without breaking the laws of physics. Do you have any opinion of how would miracles work?
Obviously I could’ve misinterpreted quantum mechanics and the whole theory goes to trash.
Ome miracles can be explained by science (ironically) with knowledge that was not available to the commoner. Some miracles defy science. Quantum mechanics has upset some of the basic laws that had been taken for granted but is not a cure-all. I remember an apparent last centimeter of milk managing to make 30 or more cups of tea. Quantum mechanics would have a job explaining that one. And touch healing?
People will always claim that there is a “logical” explanation from human perception error or some sort of magicians illusion or con, but if you are actually present you know different. The miracles performed through me are beyond my own understanding (other than by the Holy Spirit, of course).
Richard
Yeah… multiplication of bread is really an astounding feat, because Jesus probably wasn’t hiding and making stone turn into bread but literally taking bread, divide into two and somehow pieces of it were as large as the bread itself, it’s hard to even imagine, did bread get bigger after breaking it or just when it was breaking it ended in two big pieces (How do you think it looked like to Apostles?).
Touch healing would be probably easier to explain, just atoms changing properties so they are the same as if the body was completely healthy. Doesn’t seem so hard with quantum fluctuations (given they can work as I think they do).
I don’t really have problems with miracles being supernatural or being normal things that don’t happen usually, it doesn’t change anything about Jesus teachings (it does fill you with awe that God planned the universe so well though).
You seem to reject claim that miracles would be brought by natural factors but why? Is there a reason that would undermine some aspect of God? Probably @mitchellmckain doesn’t think that something like turning water into wine or walking on water would happen by some trick and if it’s done with quantum fluctuations then chance of it happening is so absurd that nobody will ever think that they could happen on their own.
Obviously there is some danger in this, maybe we can understand miracle better by seeing it happening by some “more natural” natural factors so we don’t just say that everything happening in the Bible that doesn’t make sense literally could be just done with quantum fluctuations.
Your lack in this question is not science but theology. God is not material. Nor does he have a location in space-time. He can do anything which is logically coherent. But He cannot do whatever you say by whatever means you care to dictate. Humans tend to think of God in terms of magical powers, but I think that is ultimately incoherent. Whatever God accomplishes, He does it by His own ability and understanding of how they can be done. In other words, there is logic to it all.
Yes, I think that is what God did. In fact I think it explains the reason for quantum physics.
Yes and no. There are still limits according to the rules which govern the quantum scale.
First there is the question of what miracles are. Many seem to think they are violations of the laws of nature, and I don’t think that is the case. Let me recall what Jesus said in John 14:12, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do." This is not because we can violate the laws of nature as we like. They are a part of our very existence. It is simply that the laws of nature allow for miracles.
You haven’t really said enough about it. I think the point s that because of quantum physics, the laws of nature have a largely statistical meaning to them. They are simply not as deterministic as they are often made out to be.
Matthew 14:17 They said to him, “We have only five loaves here and two fish.” 18 And he said, “Bring them here to me.” 19 Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass; and taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. 20 And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up twelve baskets full of the broken pieces left over. 21 And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children.
All we know we really know is that those people were fed to their satisfaction. We know nothing about what really happened. The miracle could simply be that some who had food already simply added what they could spare to the basket as they went around. Nothing in the text precludes such a possibility.
The only thing those quantum fluctuations can do is decide among the many possible directions that events can take. And the fact is that people do heal and get better and doctors cannot really explain why, except that the body does fight back against illness.
Quantum physics is not a license to do magic. It frankly just means that the laws of nature allow for many different possibilities. It is not just a big clockwork mechanism as they thought in eighteenth century science.
“Happen by some trick” is exactly what people will say if no laws of nature are broken. But I say the question is who is doing the trick? If it just a human being doing the trick then is just a magic show. But if it is God doing the trick then it is a miracle and supernatural because God is supernatural.
Hmmm… I think there is some misunderstanding or maybe I can’t follow the discussion. Are those sentences like “God is not material” a general critique of what people think about or critique of my thoughts.
In my thought process God is also not material, he is completely disconnected from reality but what does it mean that he “does” something to you. Does that mean that he created a world that had an action like changing water into wine already planned before universe was created? You probably disagree with actions of God that have logical sense like throwing a ball but are uncaused by physical causes. There needs to be a physical cause for a thing to happen so when you replay it under a microscope all of it makes sense.
But then how can God do something in the world if he is completely disconnected and yet needs to do something and not make it supernatural, what does God change so that it would still make sense even if he didn’t do anything? Quantum mechanics would fit well this description and you seem to agree with this here:
But then, there is some disagreement still, maybe you think that God cannot use something like Quantum fluctuations to cause unnatural events like person phasing through a wall, is that it? Or you say that quantum mechanics won’t allow God to make red ball that is yellow at the same time which would be illogical, then I agree, he can’t make something illogical with quantum mechanics or other natural ways.
I don’t want to start bigger discussion based on possibly misunderstood understanding of what you say so for now I only want to clear this up.
It was just that your example about “passing through walls” didn’t make much sense to me at the time… Though on second thought, this does apply to the story of Jesus. After the resurrection, Jesus is said to have come into a room without opening the door. The explanation doesn’t have to do with quantum physics because a spiritual body simply isn’t part of the space-time structure where the laws of nature apply. When they saw Him, I very much doubt there were any photons involved.
I don’t think so. I think the point is that God created for a relationship and thus where He would be taking part in events. I believe in a God who chose love and freedom over power and control – so no I don’t believe God controls everything that happens. That is not a real relationship with real people, but more like an author with the book he is writing. Don’t get me wrong, as an author, I know the latter is a very fulfilling relationship. But it is not enough. Compared to our experience as a parent it is NOTHING but self indulgent fantasy.
He is completely disconnected from the mathematical space-time structure of the physical universe but NO, He is not disconnected from reality. The spiritual is part of reality. It is just that reality is more than the physical universe.
When we measure the spin of an electron first in one direction and then in a perpendicular direction. The result in the second measurement is only partially caused by previously existing physical conditions. We know this because of the tests of Bell’s inequality, which tells us that no hidden variable exist determining whether the result is up or down. The measurement causes the spin to be either up or down in that direction, but not which of those two. Because of this we know that some events are not entirely determined by physical causes.
To apply this to your ball… there is no doubt that if we investigate why the ball is moving through the air as it does, then we will find physical causes for it. It is only that the precise trajectory of the ball may not be traced entirely to physical causes and that can be the difference between whether it breaks a window or not. Or in the case of a large asteroid, it can be the difference between whether it wipes out all the dinosaurs or not.
Correct.
The point is that God created the universe for a relationship which means playing a role in events but not controlling events entirely. It means that the laws of nature are not a causally closed system.
I would not say that God cannot, but that He will not. It is not a matter of impossibility but improbability. When something is so improbable that the numbers exceed the number of particles in the entire universe then it is just pushing things too far. I don’t believe God has either the need or the desire to do any such thing. I don’t believe God acts so frivolously as if the laws of nature have no importance. God created them for a very important reason. They are necessary for the process of life itself.
Look, the frank reality is that there seems to be great amount of plausible deniability in the actions of God. Skeptics can and do deny that there is any God doing any such things and it is nothing but chance and coincidences. Why? I think it is not only because the laws of nature are more important than that, but that it can really do more harm than good. Consider Matthew 13:10-15 where Jesus practically says that people must have such deniability. I think the reason for this goes back to Adam and Eve and the separation between man and God.
God “created” the laws of nature, I agree. What about post-Garden of Eden where we begin to see things and certain effects of “laws of nature” begin to surface. Would it mean that God created the laws of nature not as we have it now? Since so many things of nature were disrupted after man’s sin.
To me that is like the suggest that the universe was created this morning with all our memories and evidence as they are. We cannot prove otherwise but it is a pointless suggestion because it renders too much of life meaningless. The disconnect you suggest is just as unreasonable. It is little different than saying this is a fantasy story because it is world with too little connection to our own. Your suggestion is very similar since it is suggesting that God created evidence all over the Earth and the universe telling of a past which does not exist.
I can believe God gives us deniability by refusing to do anything too obvious, but not that He would actively lie by creating the impression of a completely false reality. He needs us to have faith but not to be deaf, dumb, and blind.
I don’t think so. Let’s examine that passage…
Romans 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
I don’t any reason why this has to refer to anything more than tyranny and negative effects our sin’s have upon nature in the role of its stewards. We have more than enough evidence with the extinctions of species, paradises turning into deserts, and even the air and water turning to poison to tell us that mankind unchecked is quite capable of destroying the earth. What about “freedom from the bondage of decay?” Is that referring to the crucially important role that decay processes have in natural cycles needed for life to continue? Or does it refer to the degradation of the environment by the depredation of mankind? It is talking about a future frozen in time with no more children and new life (for that is the implication of an earth without decay) or is it talking about a future where children don’t have to worry about chemical, biological and nuclear warfare turning the world into hell on earth? Because a future with such a disconnect (where all the laws of nature are discarded) is just as much a total fantasy as a past with that kind of disconnect. It would make the Bible irrelevant to the living of our lives.
I never mentioned bread. I never mentioned Scripture.
Popular theology suggests that the feeding of the five thousand was a miracle of sharing rather than multiplication or creation. What I referred to was an actual event which defied all logic and any law of physics that might govern the perpetuation of a substance after decanting.
I don’t mind debating scientific explanations of miracles. I don’t even care if any miracle can be explained by modern science. That is not the point of miracles. But this one defied any explanation, scientific or otherwise, but one: God. However, on this occasion there appeared to be no one present who “needed” proof of the existence or presence of God.
But weren’t your opinion that everything God does has to be done by some in-life logic? How can they see him without light particles hitting their eyes? God ate and could be touched if I remember well so he indeed could affect physical world, couldn’t he? So if it’s not supernatural then what does this “spiritual body” would look under a microscope? Would it be made of atoms and if not then how could he be touched by means other than supernatural? Was he an illusion in Apostles brains? Isn’t there a contradiction? Or did I misunderstood your argument?
I wholeheartedly agree.
Very interesting… so it’s just another layer of reality we don’t understand, is this what you think? Do they have same connection to a real world as a quantum fluctuations do?
By that I mean that the same as quantum realm affects us all but we don’t see it and it’s incredibly hard to prove (it took millennia after all) it’s the same with spiritual world, it’s even deeper and even more fundamental and works on all of reality but is not disconnected from it or do you think that it’s something completely on another plane of existence and for most part doesn’t have connection to what is happening in real life?
If it’s the former do you think we could one day prove it’s existence? Measure it or do as little as deduce that there is really something there that causes would to work like this or that but not really knowing if it’s spiritual or just another law of universe.
Hmmm, that begs the question, if not supernatural, if not some improbable thing like Quantum then how the God does those things? Maybe sceptics will say that this is all just a coincidence but if God decided that it will happen then it is not, at least to believers. If that’s true then God had to do something, supernatural or not to make those things happen. For example, how did Jesus do the healings?
Was it just a coincidence that so many people just got healthy when Jesus wanted them to?
We can’t have something like that because it’s also very improbable and impossible to accept as something normal.
Did Jesus have vast understanding of medicine and could heal them with his human hands?
Well, it doesn’t explain why Apostles could also do that when he gave them power of healing, albeit they couldn’t heal the more serious illnesses. Did he teach them how to do it? Did he made some super advanced medication we are not aware of yet?
If not quantum fluctuations because they are too improbable then maybe spiritual realm healed them? But it’s just as ridiculous to a scientist as healing with quantum fluctuations because there is no trace of this “spirituality” in a real world, at least for now.
I just don’t see all those things being done by simple natural causes like Jesus doing some hand tricks, how do you think they happened then?
is allusion to multiplication of bread, sorry for misunderstanding.
Wait so when this happened? Was it your personal experience? Was it in Scripture? It seems that it’s just average guy who saw such thing happening, yes? I understand your point that many miracles could be explained by science but many more cannot, I don’t disagree with this stance, but I would really like you could say more about this tea situation. Why do you think God choose to show up in such anticlimactic moment?
It is said that for those with faith no proof is needed and for those without faith no proof is enough.
The bible illustrates this and Christ even teaches that His signs alone are insufficient to instill faith and understanding.
There needs to be other reasons for them, perhaps just a response to need?
My experience of miracles is that they are apt for the moment. Sometimes, as in this case they were not actually called (prayed for) A bit like the water into wine circumstance. It fulfilled a need and “harmed” no one or nothing. It might not have mattered if the milk did run out. It was just the end of Service social gathering. But, like I said, perhaps there are other reasons for miracles other than some sort of proof of God or His Spirit.
I thought I had made myself clear. I am referring to personal experience, not Scripture.
Yep. But seeing is ultimately something which happens in the mind.
Paul explains that the spiritual body is more powerful. Thus it can do more not less. And yet it is not a part of space-time structure subject to the laws of nature, by which all things are perishable. So it possible they could have seen Him by means of photons but perhaps not. And no you cannot examine spiritual things under a microscope. You see what it chooses for you to see and that explains the wounds, for they make no sense otherwise… or do you think people are resurrected with detached heads or burned to ash?
I wouldn’t use the word “layer” because that word because it implies an added spatial dimension, and I don’t think it is part of the same-time structure at all. If you look at my reasons to believe you will see that for me that is part of the whole point – reality is not summed up by this mathematical understanding of things.
No, I do not think so.
The latter.
On a connected issue I am a physicalist with regards to the mind-body problem and oppose the Neoplatonist confusion of the mind with the spiritual. The evidence doesn’t support mind-body dualism. I think there is only an effective dualism due to the mind being a different form of physical life based on linguistic information rather than chemical information. The physical spiritual relationship is another matter. More dualistic in some ways, but ultimately an effective dualism as well, to do with whether things are part of the space-time mathematical structure or not. In that case, I think the relationship is largely epiphenomenal, and with the exception of God’s involvement in our lives, most of the causality is from the physical to the spiritual.
So I don’t think you could ever prove it’s existence or measure it in any way.
No. As Jesus said, He could simply see what the Father was doing. God healed them through entirely physical processes which He could effect the outcome of. But God would only do so within the statistical limits which define the laws of nature because those limits are important, needed for the process of life itself to work.
He taught them to pray. He did not give them the power of healing. It is God, the Father, who did the healing. Jesus was no wizard nor necromancer. I am a scientist but it is not ridiculous to me, because these spiritual things are not things you can measure and control. Objectively, they can be dismissed as chance and coincidence. But all that means is that the objective is not the limit of reality.
Dont really know if prayer works. But even if it doesnt for some reason it gives me a temporary comfort when i do it. I would imagine than praying for the healing of others its the same thing,No one knows if it works or doesnt.But if the person does indeed feel better i guess it might do (at least in the pshychological sense)
The proof of prayer is one of those awkward, almost impossible topics. I believe in it and have seen some results that would confirm it works, but…
Did my prayer actually change the course of events or would it have happened anyway
If I pray to move a mountain (as suggested by Christ) is it realistic? Do I actually believe it? (probably not). Would I be surprised for it not to happen? (Definitely not).
What if the person I pray for either does not believe as I do or even might have difficulty accepting the result?
This is so complex I cannot possibly do it justice here. I would have difficulty covering it in one twenty-minute sermon. Suffice it to say I believe in prayer, but not because it works, more because it is a way to communicate with God. And the bible does more than encourage it.
Again i dont really believe if it works or not.Im kind in the middle.I mean i dont really know. \
But for me when things in life get a lot harder i just turn to prayer sometimes by myself.Just like when you need to eat or drinkand do it without realizing.I just turn to the Guy up there and talk to him. I sometimes get frustrated and shout at him and other times get emotional and cry . But in the end the result is the same.I end up with an amen and the will to keep going.Dont know why that happens .Maybe its a cope thing i created when things get really bad? Dont really know .Its like something in me after the prayer that tells me (a little longer,hold on a little longer)Im not really tryna communicate with him but just ask for help.When i was a crhistian i remembered God in my happiest times and thanked him.So i kinda feel that he is obligated (to some extent) to help me . I by no means am beign ungratefull about the things i have . I count my blessings.
In the end wll never know if the result was prayer or just luck maybe .
Sorry, I can’t imagine the world that you are trying to explain to me.
Spiritual world from your opinion would be:
Something disconnected from the real world
Cannot be measured and is not based on physics (like causation or quantum mechanics).
God affects real world spiritually yet he is bounded by real life physics or at least chooses to
He can do things unthinkable by normal laws of nature (Spiritually healing someone blind for his whole life is just as sensible as it happening by pure chance)
I probably understood it incorrectly as I often do with far simpler things but to me the rules seem to contradict each other, whatever you see them as, I can’t understand it and I don’t really see what meaning is there in doing things spiritually instead of in quantum physics for example because a scientist if he were to live and walk with Jesus Christ, after seeing him resurrected, just passing through a wall and touching is wounds would be impossible to disregard as a “coincidence” just as it wouldn’t be possible to disregard apple forming with quantum fluctuations from thin air.
The only explanation I can understand, spiritual world being just a part of reality as gravity is, also doesn’t change much because it’s so unknowable by us that God could literally do anything and we wouldn’t be able to say if he is disregarding laws of nature or not knowing we don’t even know what the laws of spiritual world are.
I don’t recall saying anything about a “spiritual world.”
Incorrect. The spiritual is real. The physical is only part of reality.
Physical things are all a part of this mathematical space time structure and have their existence from these space-time mathematical relationships. Spiritual things are not a part of that structure and exist by their own nature.
So in your “real” world everything is measurable and based on physics? I am a physicist and I think that is absurd. Physics is just a way of looking at the world in mathematical terms. Why should that be the sum total of reality? We can measure a few things and figure out some mathematical relationships between them. But why would one go from there to the idea that these measurements and their mathematical relationships are all there is? It frankly sound like a football player saying that football is everything… a kind of self-centered myopia.
Yes because He created the laws of nature for a reason.
I don’t think God does anything of the sort. And it is not unthinkable that people regain their sight after being blind. To be sure most examples of this are due to medical procedures and those blind from birth tend have difficulties using their sight as well as others.