Sorry for putting words in your mouth, I say things like “quantum realm” or “spiritual world” to create some distinction from different levels of reality, obviously after all, they can be all connected, for example you would probably agree that quantum fluctuations and real life are not different but yet I recognise them as such to make discussion easier, perhaps I am just making things complicated after all instead.
Very well so you agree with my second description of spiritual, that it is a part of reality, unique, but just another part of it.
What I mean by that is that it has some influence on real world, and if it has, the changes it makes to it are still visible even if spiritual things cannot be. I agree that God can’t be measured with physics.
But won’t he violate them if he does something spiritually? After all they are not part of physics and yet he needs to influence physics so they reflect his choices. Do you mean that physics have naturally inbuilt system to incorporate things happening spiritually? Is this system quantum fluctuations or something different. I question this again because you agreed that quantum fluctuations are a way for God to do something but that he wouldn’t choose them because they would appear too disruptive, so if he won’t choose them to exert his will, are you talking about some other, milder way of affecting reality or are you still talking about fluctuations but used in far less invasive manner.
I am not concerned with unthinkability of what God does but how would he do something that wasn’t supposed to happen(meaning that it wouldn’t happen if God didn’t decide to act, not that it is impossible), I am confused on how you think God does something, he cannot plan ahead that a person will feel alright as it would be hard to predict where people with free will will end up so he has to do something right now, and if he cannot do it invasively, like change atomic structure of someone’s body, then I am confused how exactly would he do it.
I am interested if you have some concrete ideas or you don’t know but came to a conclusion that it has to happen like that. I have no disagreement with your thinking if I got it right, I just fail to imagine how would God do it. To do something right now but not be invasive from normal guy’s point of view.
Maybe the prayer that makes something happen, like you getting 1000$ or you getting healthy don’t happen anymore, maybe their function was to help Christians spread Christianity when they needed help against adversaries and now it functions as a way that God gives us strength to do something, for example strength or hope to withstand some hardship in life.
That’s how I see it, but do I have some proof that it works like that? Nope.
The “God is dead” (or at least impotent) ignores the existence of modern miracles of which I have claimed. As far I know it was rejected in the late eighties or nineties, anyway.
Well maybe? If thats so then well ill be damned. I dont want the strenght to suffer my entire life.If help is not gonna come i wanna know it. If God grants me strenght and nothing changes whats the point?
I didnt ask for money or something like it . I didnt ask for anything material. I asked for something for meaningfull than that.
Slowly ny the day my character is beign changed to the worst . If help doesnt come my heart will go hard and stone-like. Life circumstances really changes you either to the worst or the best.
I know i will survive life chalenges.But i dont want to lose my soul and heart in process.Because you see life situations sometimes makes you ruthless.And if God doesnt help well i dont think i can avoid it
Anyway got a little too personal on this one .
You clearly have a personal health problem, and I am guessing you would like some sort of Godly intervention?
I could ask why you think you might “deserve” it or words to that effect, but that would be aggressive.
A friend of mine once asked God to heal a cold. When nothing changed he was asked:
“Do want to be healed? Or do you want the symptoms removed?”
But that might be the healing God provides. It certainly was with my father. He got slowly worse but was able to maintain a certain level of sanity and serenity (and dignity) right to the end. Do I think God healed him? The answer is yes.
All I am saying, for now, is that prayer is not a matter of dictating to God the result we would like. And perhaps if you change the thrust of your prayers you might find the answers are more forthcoming. Although they may not be to your liking.
It is part of the real world, but yes it has some influence physical world. The laws of nature are not causally closed because God created to have a relationship with His creations. Yes the effects are visible even if we cannot prove that the causes can be traced to a spiritual effect upon events.
No. The spiritual is not part of the space-time mathematical structure and the laws of nature not being causally closed allow for an alteration in events.
Yes, there is back door in the laws of nature, so to speak (using software terminology).
Yes. It is the quantum fluctuations where the physics proves to be lacking in causal closure.
Quantum physics shows that we can only predict the probability distribution for the results of an interaction. But those probability distributions are the basis of the laws of nature. This give God a great deal of freedom in what He can do in a particular situation but places restrictions on changing the overall pattern. Changing a single event is allowed by the probability distribution. But changing the overall pattern would be a change in the laws of nature themselves. This is why I said that God will not change the over all pattern, but He can do miracles. A miracle is by definition a rare event not an everyday event.
Ok… let’s put it this way. Quantum physics means that most events have a roll of the dice involved in how things turn out. This is a part of the laws of nature. If God intervenes and make the results come up snake eyes just once then nobody will think anything is wrong with the dice, but if they keep coming up snake eyes, then people will think the dice are loaded, right? The first case with making the results come up snake eyes just once is a miracle. But making the dice come up snake eyes every time would be an alteration of the laws of nature.
Thus God’s ability to make miracles is built right into the laws of nature, but it also explains why those miracles don’t happen every time someone asks. got it?
Ok… but how does God make the “dice” come up snake eyes??? Is that what you are asking? There is no problem there because this is not an alteration of the laws of nature. There is no “thing” (no hidden variable) to be changed because we are not talking about actual dice but about a random elements built into the laws nature – something which is not determined by the laws of nature at all. And I am not talking about something we just don’t know about, but about something we have proof it doesn’t even exist. Now if that bothers you… heh heh heh… guess what? That bothers the heck out of a lot of physicists too… like Einstein himself. Nevertheless it is true.
Not really. Dont have any particular health problem that i know of
Isnt that the same or am i missing something?
Dont really understand this .If someones prays for something particular can something else happen instead?Interesting theology.Never heard of that.Sorry if i missunderstood what you said but thats what i got from it
Absolutely. It is the difference between perception and reality. You can believe that the whole world is against you, it might even look to you like it., but reality is almost certainly different.
Symptoms cannot kill you, the disease might.
Is prayer an immutable order, like demanding fish and chips at an Indian Restaurant?
We do not control God or His actions. That would be ridiculous. Prayer is a request. The answer can be “no”, or “try this”.
Assuming your request is reasonable and has good intentions (for example the disease above or smothing similar maybe)i dont really understand why would God say no.
True,althought symptoms can ware you down and make you weak.hense making a way for the disease to kill you
Well all i know is that there are a lot of people who need some deliverance.They need some kind of divine intervention and all i know is that God doesnt give that .So if he doesnt send help because he has something else in his mind well i hope in the end all these people who are suffering end up in Heaven.Thats the least he need to do i guess.
I get it that everyone has their battles and that if God would have intervened in everyones life and even helped them then that world would be literally heaven and maybe free will wouldnt exist. So i really dont know anymore. I just pray when i feel very burned out from the difficulties in life.I use it to boost my morale.
There is no maybe about it. If there is no choice but to do good, and no chance to accidentally die then there is no such thing as chance. Everything has to be controlled. IOW No free will.
To be free to live you must be free to die.