As I was not referring to Laws of Nature, (initially) that might be academic. Human Scientific Laws are primarily laws of observation that can change or be amended, if “proven” to be inaccurate. They are not made by us and therefore can never be immutable. The fact that you cannot see possibilities that might break them does not negate that possibility.
Richard
The point is that I do see all the possibilities and yet I can also explain the fact that every experimental test always show that there is no laws of nature broken.
I am sorry, but I am not talking about experimentation, nor laboratory science. I am talking about actual events that defy any explanation, scientific or otherwise. AKA miracles. Physical miracles, not circumstance nor coincidences.
Sorry also, I am going to bed. Good night.
Richard
I believe in Miracles. As I’ve prayed for very specific things and saw God confirm the answers to the prayer through 3 persons in my local church. I’ve prayed and still praying for members of my local church and have seen clear cut answers to these prayers amongst members of my local church. Answers that defy physical explanations and questions such as “who told them?”, “How come?”.
I’m blessed. Thank you.
God does heal but it is He who decides when and how He acts.
I hurt my upper arm and suffered from it some days. Some sort of internal tear or something like it. Last Thursday morning I was frustrated that it did not seem to heal fast enough. I said to the Lord ‘Oh Lord, heal this arm!’ and put my hand on the aching place. I guess I meant that He would let it heal in a relatively short time. At the moment I put my hand on the aching place, I felt that something happened. All pain just disappeared and the arm worked fine, even better than before the damage. I tested it for some time and then went to gym. Absolutely no problems or pain, worked perfectly.
Two days ago we prayed for a woman who had a similar type of problem. Nothing seemed to change, yet.
Why some are healed instantly and others not, that is something I don’t know. Yet, I thank for every case where someone gets the healing (s)he needs.
Should we call this kind of healings miracles or not? At least they are unusually rapid healings, in my case just a few seconds. I cannot say that it happened because of my faith. I prayed but I guess I did not expect that the arm would be healed immediately. That was grace.
But that is exactly the difference between breaking natural laws and the magic show. In laboratory you look closely enough to get beyond the distraction of appearances. Natural laws don’t get in the way of the miraculous because there are too many ways of getting around them with the appearance of magic and not just by magicians but God even more so. Again part of this is in seeing natural law a little differently – not as hard and absolute rules but as the result of probability distributions. And this is exactly what gives the correct answer to the questions in the OP. God can certainly answer prayers and work wonders but prayer is not buttons on a robot you can control, and the reason God cannot always answer prayers in the way that we would like is that there are statistical limits required in maintaining the natural laws which support the process of life itself.
Do you really think that prayer can replace modern medicine? That is downright insane, because it certainly can do no such thing. If you agree, then can you please explain why that is so when you insist that God can break the laws of nature just as He pleases? I can explain this. Can you?
That is certainly true but it doesn’t explain why God doesn’t help everyone. Because the excuse that some people are not deserving, are not praying enough, or because of it somehow being mysteriously better that certain people suffer and die just doesn’t cut it, and this is the reason why atheists don’t believe any of it. The fact is that the whole thing sounds like a way of just kicking people who are down and that makes Christianity sound rather monstrous. But there is an explanation and it is quite simple. There are miraculous acts of God but He restricts Himself to the statistical limits of the laws of nature.
God does some wondrous things (calling it mysterious or mystical will offend some where they shouldn’t be). We have objective evidence pointing to God, where no other explanation suffices.
So this is evidence where it doesn’t matter what you believe? You have a written procedure atheists can follow (without requiring them to want or believe anything) to demonstrate the existence of God? I am sure they would love to hear what that is. Because that is what would take to make any evidence what they would call objective. Otherwise you are using the word “objective” in your own personal way which is not communicating anything to them. Sorry.
Maybe some of us are in denial about the evidence of God’s providential interventions into the lives of his children. Please recall that it is about a ‘forensic’ M.O. and not replicable upon demand.
You mean the people who have no reason to believe what some book in one of many religions on the planet is said to claim?
When is forensics which is not replicable upon demand acceptable in a court of law? Otherwise you are talking about something not even objective enough for a court of law.
Yes, I wish we had a compendium of all the real and objective evidence of God’s interventions over the millennia. The two cases (two sets of multiple instances) that I frequently mention are compelling to those not in denial. I would submit them in a court of law!
I don’t think, I know. Mostly healing is done by conventional means but I have seen miraculous healing. I have even been a part of it. As for justifying who lives and who dies, who suffers, and who is relieved? I cannot. I cannot second guess God. I just know what I know.
Richard
I know that prayer cannot replace modern medicine. I will fight to death to prevent the willfully ignorant from returning us to the dark ages.
You know this is somewhat hilarious for me, because I am not even that huge of a fan of modern medicine. I think it has serious flaws to the point where I doubt it even honors the Hippocratic oath anymore. BUT it is still better than the middle ages.
As usual I take a balanced position and the different extremists force me to frequently switch sides.
No one is claiming otherwise. But, occasionally there appear to be exceptions. Like I said, I have no explanations, nor do I question God on such matters. However, I cannot deny what i have witnessed, or even been a part of.
Richard
Saying that would be mental violence, not part of the teachings of Christianity.
It is a sad fact that there are people in churches who use mental violence. Sometimes the reason is that they want to keep their respected position and attack those who might threaten their position. Sometimes the reason is another type of fear: what happens does not fit within their framework of the world, image of God or interpretation of the biblical scriptures. It is scary to accept that what I have believed is not true and there is a need to build a more correct image of God or interpretation of biblical scriptures.
That is an interesting way to say it. I am not sure I understand it.
So called miracles are often cases that could be called statistical outliers. Statistical outliers are interesting because they may be a sign that the models used to explain the data miss a potentially influential factor. Sometimes it is just an ‘error’, like someone did something unwanted that pushed the data point beyond the normal range. Sometimes it may be a sign that the model itself is not adequate.
Statistical outliers called miracles challenge our model of the universe. Is there a factor that the current scientific understanding does not yet know of? Does God interfere in ways that sometimes push a data point beyond the range of the ‘natural’ laws? I don’t know.
It certainly shouldn’t be. But how can you avoid it when you have no alternate explanation.
My argument is that the statistical limits defining the laws of nature is what draws the line between being an active participant in our lives and living our lives for us. There has to be limits regarding what God will do for us if we are to have any life of our own. For this reason I think the religious sometimes go too far in teaching a complete dependency upon God. It is an important message regarding overcoming sin, but it is harmful if extended to too much of life in general.
Well sure… It is hardly rare that we find variables we haven’t accounted for. In a way you can say that is how a magic show works. We don’t see everything which is happening. Like @Dale is often want to point out, God can arrange things in ways we would never expect.
Mostly not. It is far more often the case that it simply points to an something we know about but haven’t accounted for.
I don’t think so. I think He keeps the natural laws because they are important. It is just that the natural laws allow God more freedom of action than we sometimes realize.
Theory and reality rarely agree. My understanding of miracles is based on actual experience. Therefore any theory that they do not or cannot exist becomes meaningless.
Richard
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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