Primary and Secondary Causes, God through (not vs) Nature, and Gaps are scraps. (Aristotle and Aquinas and Cosmological arguments)

I just wanted to comment on these and start a new discussion pointing out what a lot of us really mean by saying God is the primary cause of all things. I am not a philosopher but will ltry my best to lay out some complex metaphysics that I think answers both questions.

From Aquinas we get the idea of Primary vs Secondary Causes. God is not an intervener in nature but the sustainer. This is why I find arguing from gaps (where God supposedly goes beyond how he normally sustains things) to essentially be serving someone scraps as a main course. I don’t deny supernatural miracles occur or that gaps could in theory exist that need filling, we just don’t intellectually need them. It is nature itself that is the primary evidence for God. Secondary causes are probably what we perceive as the normal ones that operate on a day to day basis in the created order (natural world) to produce contingent effects.

God as the primary cause means God is not one cause among many but the cause of the very being of things or being itself. Secondary causes depend entirely on God (primary cause) to exist and function. Using this distinction we believe God is involved in every event without compromising the integrity or removing the autonomy of natural processes. This allows science to proceed as normal and allows us to insist on divine providence throughout.

Aquinas distinguished between two types of causes : per se and per accidens. I will use linear and hierarchal to explain them.

A Linear Series or causation per accidens can be described like a domino effect. A causes B, B causes C, C caused D and so on. If A disappears after causing B, this will not impede B causing C in any way. The series goes on. Imagine a line of dominoes where if the first domino disappears after knocking over the second, the rest will still fall. In this way we might say each member has its own causal power in this series.

Another example is as follows: It is a hot day so I press a button, this turns on the air conditioner, which then cools the room which in turns causes my coffee to get really cold. In this linear series of causes and effect, I could drop dead after pressing the button to turn on the AC but everything else will happen as expected. There is no continued dependence of later members on earlier ones in a linear casual series once a specific cause happens.

A Hierarchal Series or causation per se is different, requiring a continued dependence of members. Aquinas used the image of a hand moving a stick that is moving a stone. Now it does not really matter if these actions are truly simultaneous in reality, what matters metaphysically speaking is that if the hand disappears then the stick and stone both stop moving. Whereas when talking about dominoes in a linear series, the first domino A could disappear after falling and B and C would still occur. Here, in a hierarchal series, removing a member destroys the causal chain. We can similarly say A causes B, B causes C and so on but if A is removed then also B and C disappear and the whole chain ceases to be. Another example used by Feser might be coffee sitting on a table. The cup is being held up by the table, which is being held up by the floor which is being held up by the earth and so on. If I remove the desk or floor, the coffee falls. This is a hierarchal series of causes and effects leading the actualization of the potential of the coffee sitting on my desk.

Some modern proponents might object that the hand pushing the stick which is pushing the stone does not occur instantaneously. This would be correct but we are still not describing a linear series. Physical simultaneity is not the issue. Metaphysically speaking these causes and effects are treated simultaneously but even then, it is the dependence and borrowed power in a hierarchal series that truly matters. To use the coffee analogy, the table has no inherent power on its own to hold up the coffee. In this case X is borrowing a power from Y to produce Z. Feser says as much about the coffee cup:

Since the desk, the floor, and the foundation have no power of their own to hold the cup aloft, the series could not exist in the first place unless there were something that did have the power to hold up these intermediaries, and the cup through them, without having to be held up itself.” – Feser, Five Proofs

To put it another way, once Abraham begat Isaac, we know that Isaac can beget Jacob whether or not Abraham is still alive. That is an inherent property Isaac possesses by virtue of his very nature as a biological male. But compare this to a moon shining light through a bedroom window. We know the moon has no power of its own to produce light. It only reflects light from a sun. We can think of this reflection as borrowed illumination. It wouldn’t matter if you stacked up a million reflective moons one after another, without a sun, or a first member, we would never get any illumination. Even an infinite number of moons would produce no light.

A lot of people think cosmological arguments are all about tracing linear series of causes and effects into the past and then denying an infinite regress. I think there is definitely merit to that as an actual infinite there seems quite troubling to me but this is not what Aristotle and Aquinas were doing . Many formulations of the cosmological argument attempt to show that the existence of something (using Aristotle’s act and potency) is a borrowed power or part of a hierarchal series. This is the proper understanding of Aristotle’s prime mover and Aquinas’s first way.

Feser uses a cup of coffee which he simplifies to water in an attempt to demonstrate this. First note that a potential can only be actualized by something actual itself. A cup of water on my desk is an actualized potential. In a pure Aristotelian sense, it is an example of “change” because change is simply the actualization of a potential. Those water molecules have the potential to be elsewhere and even separated into individual atoms. Anything that exists in the here and now is an actualized potential. We can ask how the water got there (someone obviously poured it) but that is not what Feser would ask. He would ask why it exists in the here and now or “What keeps the coffee in existence?” Chemical bonds of course is the first answer we science inclined folks think of but this pushes the problem back. Why are these bond actualized this way?

Ø Feser: The potential of the coffee to exist here and now is actualized in part, by the existence of the water, which in turn exists only because a certain potential of the atoms is being actualized, where these atoms themselves exist only because a certain potential of the subatomic particles is being actualized. This is a hierarchical series—one which, as we have seen, must have a first member. – Five Proofs

So when we say God is the cause of all things and cannot actually interfere with what He is already doing this is what we generally mean. Every material thing, every process, every law – it is all dependent on the prime mover for its sustenance and being at all times. “Evolution or God” is only viable to a Christian who both thinks Genesis 1-11 describes the process of creation factually step by step and that any errors in the Bible undermine the Christian faith. Outside of these constraints, the rest of us are free to let science –well– science.

So if God is the cause of existence itself for all hierarchically actualized potentials (material objects), a few things follow: God actualizes existence itself without having to have that power imparted to Him. God lacks potentiality and has “built-in” non-derivative casual power. He is pure act of being itself. Not one cause among many, but the source of all cause (actualized potentials). Not only does God not have a cause of His own, He could not in principle have had or needed one.

@T_aquaticus I think the quote you highlighted is generally fine.

@Theangeloffury Liam, you are asking about why there is no explicit evidence for God in nature. If this reasoning is correct, all objects in the material universe seem to fit this bill as they represent hierarchically actualized potentials. The problem is not that there isn’t any evidence, but there is so much of it you’ve been blinded by it or are entrenched in a mechanistic image of a God out there who comes in to tinker with nature. I remember Trent Horn in noting in a book that a skeptic said he would convert if he saw a limb regrow from nothing Trent’s response was something along the lines of: Why do you need a limb? God already provides you with a whole universe from nothing. Looking for supernatural miracles or scientific gaps as proof for God is like looking for scraps on the floor while the main entree sits on the table in front of you.

So I firmly believe metaphysics and scripture teach the same thing:

I formed you in the womb (Jer 1:15, Psalm 139:13-16 ) does not negate reproductive biology. God brings forth the rain (Mt 5:45, Job 37:13, Am 4:7, Zech 10:1) does not negate collision and coalescence in warm clouds or the Bergeron process in cold clouds. God feeds birds (Mt 6: 26-34) does not mean food webs or ecological systems don’t exist. The American Robin eats worms and other natural foods, as opposed to supernatural manna and quail from heaven. It is not God vs nature but God through nature. Yet I affirm all these descriptions as true along with the scientific understanding of them.

‱ Acts 17:24, 28a The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. . . . For ‘In him we live and move and have our being.’ 1 Cor 8:6 reads**: “** yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” Col 1:16-17: “all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Hebrews 1:3: “3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word.” We can glean creation ex nihilo from a number of passages (Gen 1:, Isaiah 45:18, Ps. 33:6,9, 90:2, John 1:3, Rev 4:11, 10:6, Acts 4:24, 17:24 ,Hebrews 11:3).

Whether or not you agree with the argument for God’s existence, the distinction between types of causes should help explain what we mean by them

Vinnie

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Thanks for getting back to me on that, and also for defining what you mean by primary causes. I am always trying to understand the Christian position better, especially the BioLogos position, so this is of great help.

Reading back through the the essay, it appears Romanes uses the same descriptors you use:

To avoid misapprehension, however, I may here add that while Mr. Darwin’s theory is thus in plain and direct contradiction to the theory of design, or system of teleology, as presented by the school of writers which I have named, I hold that Mr. Darwin’s theory has no point of logical contact with the theory of design in the larger sense, that behind all secondary causes of a physical kind, there is a primary cause of a mental kind.

The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution, by George J. Romanes, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.

I believe it is this approach that allows scientists to find agreement even if they don’t share the same religious beliefs.

It does, and thanks again.

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Vinnie,

I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions and I’m grateful for your explanation between linear and hierarchical causes. Change regarding Potentiality and actuality reminds me a lot of my physics class, discussing potential and kinetic energy. It gives me a more robust understanding of the Prime Mover argument.

In my case, I’m only trying to understand the relationship to God and His natural world. If your argument is sound, then I would agree that there would be an overflowing amount of “evidence” of God’s existence. I do enjoy the scraps vs feast argument; thats definetly a metaphor i havent heard before. A few more questions if you don’t mind me asking?

  1. Is God (or some other being) the only answer to the question of a “being or entity of pure actualization that all beings’ actualized potential? To me when I hear these arguments, a more basic question resides is, what was the Prime Mover? Or more simply, what was the eternal aspect that all things come from. I don’t like the ideas that somehow the universe could of come into being out of nothing just simply with the scientifc knowledge we currently have. Could the “natural laws” be eternal, or “space”, or something else, even material could be eternal? I think most arguments of something being eternal will fall on the same level of believability and proof as a transcendent entity.
  2. Does there have to be a reason why reality or the universe is sustained by another, or is there any coherence in the idea that the universe is self sustaining, or that the natural laws are sustaining it(kinda like the idea of the natural laws being eternal)? (Does there have to be something else outside of the “science of it”)

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me

-Liam

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Let me offer this side-thought. There is an inherent weakness in design arguments. If someone argues the cell had to be designed I could say by who or whom? Do they still exist? Are they friend, foe? Do they have to be immaterial or an advanced alien species who can warp space and travel FTL? Are we a science project? What created whoever designed our cell and sparked evolution? Design arguments can’t actually get us to the God of classical theism or the God of Christianity. They can be consistent with them but they don’t quite get us there. Now lets fast forward to the prime mover argument →

What is a universe and what is a law of nature? For me a law of nature is simply “a shorthand description of the way material substances will tend to operate given their natures.” A law of nature is just a description of the potentiality of material objects. My cup of coffee has the potential to sit on my desk, but not the potential to sprout wings and fly around the room. We would need to agree on what the word “universe” and what a “law of nature” means to have a truly fruitful conversation. Few people actually think about what “law of nature” actually means in a philosophical sense. It matters.

The cool thing about the prime mover argument and other proofs used by Feser and other Thomists is that that the divine attributes are part of the package. They extend naturally from the arguments. So whether you call it God or “Universe” or “Kablombah”, the prime mover will have the properties of the classical definition of God.

You may be thinking in terms of a linear series. It is hard not to. Aristotle actually believed in an eternal universe. His prime mover argument still works. Even if we could trace an infinite number of causes and effects back into the past, the hierarchal argument still works. Because it is not interested in that. It asks about why something continues to exists in the here and now in a hierarchal sense.

Vinnie

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Philosophically the only minimal way that God can be proposed is as the ground of eternal, infinite, being. Being that without such ground could not be.

Which, of course, is not necessary: Without any evidence at all.

Such a ground is absolutely necessary. These days it comes down to a self-generating universe or an exterior cause.

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I’d say you and Klax are both wrong. Its comes down to the prime mover. Always has and always will. Do you really take material reality creating itself from nothing seriously?

Vinnie

Yes, but without intentionality. That is not necessary for existence. And nature, being eternal being, with no externality apart from other separate instances of nature, needs no self-generation, no cause. It is. Its own ground. Invoking Love is lovely. But a forlorn hope. Without a shadow of evidentiary doubt.

And Vinnie, eternal being makes quantum auto ex nihilo, which is perfectly serious of course, irrelevant. There has always been something.

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“From nothing” is not an element of my statement. “Self-generating” refers to “it’s always been here” but with the idea that somehow the end of the universe results in a re-boot, so to speak.

Now that is pure religion.

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By what definition I have no idea. It is pure reason. The alternative to which is unreason.

You’ve certainly convinced yourself that it is “pure reason”, but pure reason cannot exclude the possibility that once there was nothing.
Which is what shows that you have invented your own private religion.

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Of course it can, as that is unreason. Disorder. Impossibly complex disorder. What’s privately religious about un/reason, dis/order in public discourse? There can be no beginning, no end, of beginnings. In the clash of m-branes in hyperspace, resulting in universes, there is no place, no space, no time for nothing, unless it is the infinite, eternal ground of being. It would be superfluously infinitely complex and in fact meaningless, unreason, for there to have been nothing before anything, before eternal nature. The eternity of nature is the greatest single possible fact. I.e. true datum. The only reasonable inference about existence, reality. And if the ultimate wisps of existence can come in to being ex nihilo, they always have. Where, why, how would a God, Intention, Love even, (of infinite of course) be needed in any of this? Apart from in our disordered minds? What, you might as well invoke another superfluous layer of infinite complexity to underlie your emergent confusion?

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Thanks for reopening. The popular, atheist philosopher Alex O’Connor explains the hierarchical arguments quite well. Honestly, I thought I was reading Feser’s proofs or watching one of his videos for the first 13 minutes.

1-13 minutes: Strongest argument for God: A-T prime mover/unmoved mover hierarchal cosmological argument.
13 -17 min: Strongest against. comments on evil
17-20 Closing thoughts and problems with deism and brownie points for mentioning the problematic mechanistic image of God.

One of the only interesting critiques of the argument is to attack it via simultaneity and physics but I think that confuses ontological dependence with physical transmission and misunderstands what philosophers mean by cause and effect.

This is a snippet of his thoughts on evolution and suffering (he avoids the word evil) and for me this is why I think many Christians are opposed to evolution. We talk about Christocentric hermeneutics and avoiding OT passages but evolution takes the cake for most people:

The strongest argument against the existence of God as traditionally conceived is undoubtedly the problem of evil. . . . Natural selection is survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest is the same thing as the destruction and death and suffering of the weakest. For billions of years, there’s been life on Earth. And for much of that, it’s existed in a brutal competition for survival with predation and disease. And 99.9% of all the species, let alone the creatures, but the species who’ve ever existed been wiped from existence usually in pretty in a pretty dismal manner. And all of this is built into the very mechanism by which God chose to bring about human life on earth. . . . it is unfathomable truly the amount of suffering that these animals not just like the human species . . . But the animals who came before us and the animals who existed at the same time as us, it’s it’s genuinely unfathomable the the depths of despair and misery and suffering and torment, meaningless torment for those animals who don’t get to inherit eternal life. And we’re told that for some reason, God chose this mechanism to to bring us into existence. It just doesn’t seem to be what you would expect.

He notes it doesn’t logically disprove God but does note its problem for certain conceptions of God.

Anyways, it’s an extremely well done video.

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That is metaphysics. Indeed, by the same measure you use to dismiss the idea of a beginning, it is ridiculous, it is unreason, really no different than imagining minuscule fairies managing quarks so matter can exist.

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The distinction between horizontal and hierarchical/vertical causation is both critical and – to most people – obscure. “Sustaining” is a great term and links to theology and goes to my regular point that there must by necessity have always been something, and the only choice is whether it is material (in the broad sense) or immaterial, i.e. either the universe or something like it or some other kind of entity.

His presentation at time reminds me of one of my philosophy professors who would act the part of some specific philosopher and answer our questions.

I’m not sure that’s accurate in terms of species – mostly they just become something else, right?

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I think linear and hierarchal causation is less obscure than horizontal and vertical causation which is certainly miles less obscure than causation per accidens and per se. I like the word sustaining cause. Definitely a little less esoteric than hierarchical. Its a good way of understanding vertical/hierarchical/per se.

My intro to philosophy class used a book called “Archetypes of Wisdom” and each one just went through a major philosopher and their ideas. The professor basically assumed the role the philosopher each class and asked us questions challenging us from that perspective. It was a really cool way to run the class.

I don’t really have an issue with what Alex said because I understand his meaning well enough and I have seen a lot of credible scientific sources make a similar statement. Species can be a controversial word I guess.

But are you really asking if evolution rules out essentialism?

Vinnie

While I can understand how this could be difficult for some people to come to terms with, I personally don’t really struggle with this statement. Specifically because there’s obviously a positive or negative interpretation to that statement. For me, seeing that almost all species that existed has met an untimely end, just shows how as the Earth evolved and different conditions conducive to other forms of life, certain species came and went. Overall, because of our long history, this has allowed such a greater extent of life forms than in a YEC scenario with a mostly static starting condition. I rather take the idea that even if most species went extinct and aren’t living, our evolutionary history has allowed for so much more species to exist. Obviously, it’s still left to the imagination of what will happen in the new earth with so many different climates needed to allow for all the animals in our past.

Maybe I’m taking the argument in a different way but to me I’d rather have a species come into existence and go extinct than for that species never to exist, and if that proliferation came at the cost of certain resets within the evolutionary history and great extinction then I’m okay with that.

The question of animal suffering within that question is more difficult and probably needs more thought undertaken with it.

-Liam

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You don’t even need prior eons of animal death or evolution. You already have this problem just with present animals and humanity itself right now. Of the 8 billion humans alive now and the billions more who’ve died over the last few millenia - that already adds up to an unfathomable amount of brutish suffering that would blow any sane mind if we were somehow to consciously encounter it all. Those of us who hold to faith without being in denial of that don’t do it because we’ve resolved some sort of logical answer or rebuttal for it. It’s more that we’ve just become acclimated to having that significant piece of furniture there in our mental living room and we just negotiate life and belief around it knowing it’s there. Nobody dodges this by denying evolution or deep time. In fact, they even just make it worse.

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