I was just giving my answer to Riversea’s question … there is no “you guys” about this - I’m only speaking for my own understandings here.
All will (eventually) find that repentance and forgiveness are the only avenues that Christ opens up for us to be restored. Short of that, there will be no salvation. Neither repentance nor forgiveness are mere window dressing added on to something. They are essential ingredients. Otherwise the evil remains unrepentant and undefeated to eternity. God’s (and our own) victory never finally comes if evil (including the evil in you and me and in all the past and present enemies we still identify as such) is not utterly destroyed. Hell’s gates will not be surviving being stormed by even just the church (much less God). That’s my own hope and prayer - not just my own, but a hope now passed along through the ages.
Trying to distinguish ourselves from other so-called “trash human beings” is a fool’s errand. If you can’t yet identify the older brother’s place in the parable of the prodigal son, then all I can recommend is that you re-read and prayerfully ponder that parable. Also the parable of the unforgiving servant. According to 1 John 1:8, If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
It isn’t my intention to provoke you to venting. I was just trying to help Riversea grasp some further understandings in this. You may take or leave anything I say, of course. And as regards Satan, there will be nothing of evil finally left that can stay active and living in God’s eternal presence. That alone is a final verdict enough for me. I have no stakes or claims in trying to discern natures of things or beings beyond our understanding, save to hold firmly that no evil has any lasting part or share in the Kingdom of God.
[It seems to be a lasting fear of yours that this understanding of Christ is somehow letting ‘trash human beings’ off scott-free of all consequences. Nothing could be further from the truth - and in fact it might be some of the more traditional formulations of substitutionary atonement that ironically come closer to doing what you fear - letting an eternal injustice stand by placing it into so-called opposition to mercy. One advocate for the higher view (infinite justice and infinite mercy actually being one and the same) notes that nobody escapes the consequences of their sin - indeed until ‘the last farthing is paid’. It is this understanding that I find much more biblical, much more Pauline, much more attuned to what Christ has done for us: that we will be separated from our sin (and that includes our desire for it) as far as the east is from the west. And in the end, we will be willing participants in that process of being baptised into his death so that we too might be raised anew. Not unwilling subjects as we first are, still in our sin, and yet still loved by Christ anyway.]
That’s not Christian Universalism. “Christian Universalism” says “all will be saved” = i.e. “Equality of Outcomes” for everybody regardless of origin or path. It’s the “cheap grace” that Bonhoeffer wrote about.
Well … that certainly is not part of what I understand. To get back to cheap grace I would have to fall back on some of the more traditionally promoted substitutionary formulations that have become popular in recent centuries (probably since St. Anselm, I guess.) What is (I think) more biblical, and more importantly - more Christ-like is the most expensive way possible to understand this. One indeed is in the end obliged to sell everything to buy this pearl of great price. Christ opened up the way for us, which we could not do - and now it is put to us to respond with active repentance and forgiveness in ways that require nothing less of us than our entire lives. This grace is the most expensive grace imaginable to the fallen mind. And yet it is free when one realises how worthless all that given-up stuff was compared to what is gained. It is free also in the sense that it is an advance bequeathment even while this all is still in process for each of us. The process must continue - make no mistake - I cannot be at peace with Christ until the last of my sinful desire and actions are cleansed away. But I need not fear that I am abandoned to those things while still yet mired in some of them. I cannot stay that way though.
Sorry - I’m accustomed toward anticipatory defensiveness about these sorts of things. And too quick to see responses as challenges. The label can come or go - I don’t really care. But I do care about the content of belief and its consequences - and that it not be construed as cheap grace (which it seems you haven’t!) My bad.
Maybe I’ve forgotten what Bonhoeffer wrote. In any event,
I affirm that Christ–and none other–opened and can open the way for anyone.
I affirm that no one can, by hook or crook, figure out and commit to following the path that he walked and that the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus Christ alone, is the Comforter and Spirit of Truth who can and does guide and strengthen us until our life in this world is ended.
I believe that my brother-in-law, who committed suicide in 2000, “jumped too soon”; but that I shall see him again someday, redeemed and joyful in Christ.
First of all as Terry said this is not exactly universalism what are you describing.
Secondly
My fear is justice not being applied in the afterlife. That’s all . An understandable fear o would assume. Imagine the ultimate judge not passing judgment in the end.
So you don’t believe in the concept of everyone will be saved right? Sorry I didn’t quite understand that. It seems contradictory to universalism as stated anove
Doesn’t everyone? Unless you want to pretend sainthood. If I’m wrong and they were right(which they weren’t) then let me be the one at the stake. If not they get what they deserve.
Isn’t that justice?
Not torture necessarily. Just not in my resting place on paradise. Or generally near me in the after life.
I also do believe some transgressions here won’t be forgiven. For me the “all sins will be forgiven” it’s either a made up thing from the writers or a typo error in the Bible.
In no human and logical ,cognitive and generally Universal thought or mind does someone forgive everything. Not even the creator. It’s not logical and contrary to morality. Which its so strange right? For me something may be amoral but to some others not. It’s so stupid.
Anyway enough with my thoughts
It is solidly among the teachings of Christ and the apostles that judgment will happen - I don’t believe you need worry about that!
I don’t rule that out (and don’t find scriptural grounding to do so), any more than I try to adjudicate who is in or out. That’s in God’s hands, where it is best left. All I know is that if I persist in wishing evil on others who (in my eyes) well-deserve such affliction, then I too have joined in the very same evil that I pretend to despise, and I have turned away from God while I do so.
With so many interpretations and philosophies out there trust me ,I do.
You have a point. But if what they did was justified for the evil you wish I think God would understand. You can’t hate the sin and not the sinner. That’s a stupid concept. But I do get your thought
@riversea, Merv has shared some quotes from George MacDonald with you. I did some digging around and found a German blogger who has translated his sermons into German. I think you may find her blog site helpful.
The Sermons were published in 3 sections, which the blogger has collected into 3 groups of blog posts. You can also open each of the sermons separately, if you want.
You can find all the sermons here:
They are in reverse chapter order. So chapter 12, 11, 10, 9, etc.
@Mervin_Bitikofer, when you share quotes with Riversea, it will probably help her find the sermon she needs to reference, if you give her the title of the sermon in English as well as the section that it came from.
She will be able to handle translating the title into German
You might want to take a look at Merv’s thread here: MacDonald (selections from Lewis) - #25 by Mervin_Bitikofer . Start at this post on “Divine Burning” which you may find more than satisfies your desire for all to get what they have coming to them. Merv also included the link to the entire sermon, if you feel the need for more.
I would agree that a lot of the problems in the world can be attributed to human sin without also including the devil and the devil can become just a way to avoid responsibility. Nonetheless, I think there are some problems in the world that are beyond human control that clearly appear to be the result of an imperfect, fallen world. The most obvious example would be natural evils like disease or natural disasters. Another would be that death and suffering are interwoven into the evolution of life itself (i.e., the struggle for existence). This is not to say that the devil is the direct cause of these things or that they are entirely bad, but a non-human source to evil and suffering in the world I think prevents us from simply blaming humans for their suffering. Also, I know that some evolutionary creationists have used the idea that Satan rebelled against God shortly after the initial formation of the universe to explain why death and suffering existed before Adam. Since the rebellion happened at the beginning, the effects of sin ended up impacting creation from the very beginning. I am not saying I totally agree with this view, but it is true that the Bible does not say when Satan rebelled and he was clearly already opposed to God by the time Adam came on the scene. Just a thought.
Nick, I hope you are well. Thanks for your good thoughts. I wonder if it would help to look at things this way. Life is short, and we are far from perfect. Do you think there is any sin that is great enough that someone should suffer for it for eternity?
It’s starting to snow intermittently here (cold rain right now), so I hope you are warmer than we are.
Thanks.
? Natural Disasters “appear to be the result of an imperfect, fallen world”?
I watched Netflix 4-part series, “Earthstorm”, covering: Tornado, Volcano, Earthquake, and Hurricane. As destructive and disastrous as each of those four are, I am hard-pressed to imagine our planet without the forces that lead up to them.
Has anyone written a book or presented a study of what earth might be like without any of the forces that lead up each of those disasters?
That is why I said that I do not think they are entirely bad. Volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc., are clearly an important part of planetary processes today and Earth would not be habitable without them. On the other hand, since they can be a source of death and suffering I wonder if part of the renewal of creation will be the arrival of a time when the case is different, when we can have habitable planets without death and suffering. I am not saying this is my view. I am just speculating. In the case of planetary processes, for example, we may one day be able to control planetary processes to make volcanism and earthquakes less destructive. I do not think that we are anywhere near being wise enough or technologically advanced enough to do this, but control of planetary and even stellar and cosmic processes by a future technologically advanced and wise civilization is one way that physical suffering and death might be mitigated or even eliminated entirely, though to eliminate death and suffering entirely would also require sin to be eliminated entirely.
Personally, I’m hoping for a non-standard human body. Instead, something that doesn’t require technology to move around in. But who knows? I sure don’t.