???
Do I need to quote the verse where Christ said “the one without sin casts the first stone?”
You are happy to express the verses that you know and rely on, but there are several thousand more than that.
And you have never addressed the story of Jonah, or does that not count?
There is more to the bible than a few so called “key citations”. I know my bible, thank you.
Richard
Who said anything about arbitrary?
All I am saying is that there is more to God’s forgiveness than Christianity.
I am also saying that people here take the bible as some sort of legalistic law rather than trying to understand why things were written and what they are actually expressing. Simplistic being the operative word.
Furthermore, people seem to prefer the letter of Scripture to either God’s integrity, or the Billions of people who do not follow their faith.
God cares for all of His creation, that is the message of Jonah, but that seems to be something that some people here do not wish to accept or try and integrate into their (selfish?) faith.
Richard
You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbour as yourself.
The whole of the Law and the prophets hinges on these two commandments.
I do not see anything there about Christ or Christianity.
Richard
John 8:19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”
With that said I’m done man.
You clearly believe Islam and Buddhism can lead someone to salvation if they are a good person and love whatever they call God. So there is no point in me continuing the conversation about Christianity. I’m sure another can engage you in this.
That makes the reverse true.
I play “Devil’s Advocate” to make people think. But instead, all I get is knee jerk reactions and outrage. All I ask is that people see past their selfish prejudices and try and see the true Love of God that extends beyond their limited horizons. Instead all I see is self-righteous and conceited Christians who care nothing for their neighbour, only the words in their precious bible. And cannot see that they are no better than the Pharisees who obeyed every rule to the nth degree and lauded it over those who did not. Christian snobbery is probably the greatest flaw in Christianity as a whole and I am certain that Paul would turn in his grave if he could see how his words are used.
Richard
Only if they see the wrong they have done and repent of their sins and seek Jesus Christ as their salvation. God is willing to forgive if only we come out of a ego complex and see that we are lost in a great gulf and need God in our life.
And you were doing so well.
A perfect Christian response.
A shame that you cannot see what is wrong with it.
I will give you a clue… How small is your God?
Richard
God spared Nineveh because the people…?
repented.
But Christ had not yet been born, let alone died and risen.
Christ is the demonstration, even proof. Christianity insists that it is something more.
Richard
It is repentance unto God that leads to salvation alone. It may have been by other ways before the Incarnation of Christ, but in Christ we find salvation. God does save and is able to save. I have no problem that God can save someone outside of the Christian religion and lead one to Jesus Christ, but I state that only God alone through the finished work of Jesus Christ can save.
John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved though Him.
1st Tim. 2:3-5 “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
You said God is going to forgive anyone “anyways”. That kind of makes the entire process arbitrary. It doesn’t matter who you are or what you do.
Your comment doesn’t address my question. Do you think God forgives everyone? Even murderers who don’t change their ways and continue thinking murder is fine? Rapists? Thieves? Frauds? Do you think hell exists?
I was not talking about rapists or the unrepentant
I think they will be shown the errors of their ways and offered the chance to repent.
Christ said so. But maybe not in the manner that we conceive it.
As far as I am concerned Heaven is to be with God. Hell is to know God and be denied access to Him.
Richard
I think they will be shown the errors of their ways and offered the chance to repent.
Do you think everyone eventually repents before death? Even the ISIS fighters who died while blowing themselves up to slaughter others?
The crucifixion was not so that we could forgive ourselves. That is quite contrary to the explicit teachings of Christianity and the Bible, which say that it was meant to pay for the sins of the repentant. Because if that isn’t what it’s for, then our sins our upon us and a just God will punish us for the crimes we’ve committed.
I think you will find that many, if not most, find it easier to be forgiven by others (God included) than to forgive themselves. We have a sense of justice and fairness that the crucifixion overturns, which is why so many fond the Christian faith both repugnant and impossible.
On the other hand it is much easier to forgive others than it is to forgive yourself. There is self sacrifice in forgiveness which is much more self fulfilling than accepting someone else’s sacrifice which can be looked at as insulting charity. ( A little extreme? Maybe, but think about it)
Whichever, it does not change the meaning God gave it so His grace persists even if not accepted. What you or I believe will not change whether God ultimately punishes or not, because the move and the interpretation comes from God, not you or I.
Richard
Whichever, it does not change the meaning God gave it so His grace persists even if not accepted. What you or I believe will not change whether God ultimately punishes or not, because the move and the interpretation comes from God, not you or I.
It seems to me like Christianity teaches that what we believe exactly determines whether or not God punishes us, because that is the standard by which God judges. Are you a good or bad person?
That is not for me to declare.
Richard
Nothing outrageous about it RichardG. And I can’t even forgive myself. Religion is human behaviour predicated on our evolutionarily hard wired capacity for the sacred, to make things sacred. The Pharisees were MOST human. As was Jesus of course… Religion is always self righteous unless it is about reaching out to the other, especially the less privileged. That’s the only religion God wants.
I think you will find that is the whole point. You can’t but God can.
I also think your view of religion is more than a little cynical. Yes there is an innate tendency to look for the spiritual, or at least something (or some one) to worship, But Christianity is not the atypical result of that tendency. The Greek, Roman or Norse Pantheons are typical human views of God(s) being very human, argumentative and ultimately selfish. The Christian view is of a God who does not conform to human values or self centredness.
Richard
Aye Richard, my view of human nature, which includes religion, is rightly, accurately cynical i.e. all human behaviour is self interested. God’s forgiveness doesn’t help. I find His lack of condemnation far more helpful. He doesn’t need to forgive. He needs to restitute all the loss I have been party to. And I need forgiveness, but not His. I need to make amends regardless in enlightened self interest. If God is, if Jesus saves, then it is in that and in transcendence for all in the resurrection.
I guess you need your forgiveness, which usually comes at a cost. Penance fulfils that need, but, IMHO is not really part of Christianity. Jesus fulfilled all penances but no one like an act of charity, it seems. I think what you need to do is understand why you think you need some other sort of forgiveness, or restitution giving. What it will achieve or solve. I would have thought that a clean sheet would be a good thing? Start again and try not to repeat the mistakes you have made? I think that is what is at the heart of Christianity, removing guilt and concentrating on the present rather than the past. You cannot change what has happened but you can resolve to do it different next time.
Richard
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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