Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Amen. Keeping the commandments of Christ (including the ten commandments) is not the same thing as trying to keep the old covenant. Keeping the commands of Christ to love God and neighbor is possible only because of the holy spirit as a gift of Christ living in you. So the old covenant said to keep the commands to earn God’s favor; the new covenant says to keep the commands because God has favored you.

One parable that makes clear the transition from old to new, is when Jesus talks of the wedding banquet… the invited guests were the privileged, we could say those expected to be invited, such as the Jews, or anyone else who assumed a “right” to be invited. But Jesus said they found excuses not to come… in other words, they were having other priorities, worshiping other gods and serving themself, which Israelites had done. The invitation then went out to those who did not “deserve”, who did not have an apparent right (the gentiles, the poor, the common people), and they came. But even of them, they had to put on the robe of righteousness. The man who did not put on the robe of righteousness, but thought he was just okay the way he was, did get thrown out and punished. So here you have the whole thing in a nutshell.

Faith is first. But James says that faith without works is dead, and Paul said to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. Jesus saved us; we do not save ourselves. The works (obedience) we do will not save us, but they acknowledge our faith. They prove our faith, and they are evidence of our love for Christ. Works (obedience) done outside of faith are useless in God’s eyes, partly because they are imperfect, and partly because they are overshadowed by the larger disobedience of pride and rejection of God. Works and obedience done in faith bring us closer to communion with God, and allow the Spirit not to be quenched in our lives.

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Eddie,

I am not sure what you mean by Red Flag words.

Certainly you must know that God and I take covenantal language very seriously. I really do not know where you think that you can just change the day of the Sabbath and reinterpret the meaning of the Name of God because it suits your theory concerning the Law.

Also Jesus and Paul were clear in their condemnation of both Legalism and Relativism, so we must be very careful to avoid these two traps that you leave yourself open to fall into.

Covenants are unconditional agreements, which is the reason that your qualifications are ignored

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@Eddie

You are comparing covenantal law to civil law, which is like comparing apples to oranges, they have some similarities, but they are not the same.

The acceptance of the covenant of Jesus Christ and the spiritual law connected to it is voluntary, while it is mandatory for all to obey civil laws. People are not compelled to become Christians, so they accept the covenant of Jesus Christ by choice, which is their relationship with God based on faith and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Christians do, but I will not say must, respect the Decalogue under this framework, but not the Decalogue as Decalogue.

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@Eddie

That is your unsubstantiated judgment not backed by scripture as we have discussed at length.

Wisdom is putting first things first.

Jesus Christ is first, everything else is second including the 10 Commandments.

As a Christian my obligation is solely to Jesus Christ. To introduce anything or anything else into the equation is a serous mistake as Paul realized. The covenant of Jesus Christ plus anything else equals loss of salvation. Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega of our faith.

I do not find anything obligation to obey the Decalogue in the Apostles’ Creed or the Nicene Creed.

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Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

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@johnZ

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

JohnZ, if you read carefully you will see that John is not referring to the Ten Commandments, but the commandments of Jesus to love one another.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This quotation is taken from the Sermon on the Mountain where Jesus takes the form of the new Moses giving His new covenant law on the mountain. Thus here we are not talking about the Ten Commandments, but about the commandments of Jesus which are more demanding than the Ten.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

This part of Paul’s argument against imposing the Law on Gentile converts. Circumcision actually was a command from God. The argument is not that people should not fulfill the rules of the law, but concentrating on the rules of the Law distracts us from loving others as Jesus loves us. Again Paul quotes the command of Jesus to love one another as God’s Law he does in Romans 13:9, rather than the 10 Commandments.

In Mt 19:17 and Mk 10:19 Jesus is talking to the rich young ruler, who asked, “What must I do to receive Eternal Life?” Jesus answered, “Have you obeyed the Law?” He said that he had. Then Jesus said, "You are missing one thing. Sell all that you have, give the money to the poor, and follow Me."

You and Eddie are talking about keeping the Decalogue, like the Rich Young Ruler, while I am talking about giving up everything and following Jesus as the one and only true Christian Covenant. No doubt that makes me a nonconformist, but so be it.

Without demeaning the covenant of the Ten Commandments which has a role in the lives of the Jews and ours, Christians are not bound by it as they are by the covenant of Jesus Christ.

Also the motivation is very different. Christians love God because God first loved us, rather than because God commanded us to obey God. 

Reply

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Roger, I think you are creating dissension unnecessarily. You are even arguing with yourself. You agree that Jesus’ commands are more demanding than the ten commandments, not less demanding. You agree that Jesus talked about keeping the ten commandments from the heart, ie. do not hate, do not lust in your heart, etc., don’t just keep the form of the law, but honor the law with your heart and with your intent. You cannot mean to imply that it is okay to keep Jesus’ command not to hate or lust(which is a form of adultery), and then say that it is okay to ignore the ten commandments in their straightforward implications.

You talk about “concentrating”, as if that negates the ten commandments, and yet you know that it does not. The fact is that to say that Christians are not bound by the ten commandments is meaningless. If Jesus wants us to keep the ten commandments, which he certainly indicated, as you said Jesus is even more demanding, then certainly to follow Christ means to include obeying these commands, which as Romans 13:9 says are summed up in the law to love your neighbor as yourself. The ten commandments are merely a minimum, but still a very necessary minimum. If you ignore them, then certainly you have ignored Christ.

Do not think that keeping the ten commandments merely outwardly will satisfy God’s demands, but certainly ignoring them will indicate your rebellion against God. Please don’t create dissension and disunity where there is no need.

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@johnZ
John,

I never said that Christians should ignore the Ten Commandments. That is a lie that Eddie keeps repeating.

Now please understand what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler, which was to become His disciple, to believe in Him and follow Jesus. That is not the same as obeying the Ten Commandments. Indeed Jesus indicated that obeying the Ten Commandments does not bring Eternal Life, only Faith in Jesus as the Messiah does.

The message of Jesus and Paul is that humans are not saved by obeying the Law in whatever form, but by faith. Jesus and Paul said that when we have saving faith, we also fulfill the requirements of the Law.

So it is Faith, the New Covenant that is ultimate, while it is works which is penultimate. Eddie talks as if works is ultimate. He never talks about faith at all. He even told me at one time the Pharisees were good role models, so that seems to be where his head is. He certainly knows how to be very judgmental without understanding that Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged.”

Legalism is a very serious problem in the church today. I did not create it, it is already there. It needs to be confessed and addressed.

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Eddie,

This remark was addressed to the Rich Young Ruler. This was meeting him where he was, which was one who had obeyed the commandments.

Now let us say that Jesus was addressing a nonobservant Jew or a Gentile. Would Jesus have said that obeying the Law was a necessary prerequisite for salvation or following Him? No.

The Commandment is still the same, Give up all that you have (or Repent) and Follow Me!

For the New Testament, the Covenant is based on Repentance and Total Faith in Jesus Christ. The Covenantal Law is based on Love and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Ten Commandments are often seen as a general moral law which is affirmed, but not established as the standard for Christians.

Jesus said, If you love your friends and hate your enemies, what do you do more than the pagans, but I tell you to love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you!

It is like aiming for a target. Christians are trying to hit the bulls eye every time through total Love, while others are trying not to miss through good human aim. They both appear to be doing the same thing, and yet they are not.

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19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.

Certainly Jesus never said that keeping the ten commandments was not necessary. Saying this is a falsehood on your part. He said only that if you only keep the commandments, you still may lack the love and sacrifice that comes with following Jesus.

While legalism can be a problem for Christians, yes, the most prevalent problem today is not legalism, but immorality, or maybe a type of legalism that tolerates immorality. On the one hand you have people claiming to be christians merely because they are fairly “good”, they haven’t murdered anyone, and hardly ever commit adultery. Yes, that is legalism. But on the other hand, we have the other people, even the same people sometimes, being immoral as well, justifying their immorality on the basis of Christ’s forgiveness and mercy, and using the phrase, “who are you to judge? are you any better really?”

But it is not about judging at all. It is about agreeing that we should, and want to obey God in his son Jesus. It is agreeing with the apostle Paul that the law (ten commandments) is summed up (not minimized) in the law to love God and neighbor.

You and Eddie are both right, and Eddie does not even disagree with you, but you want to disagree with him. If you are not using this de-emphasis of the ten commandments as a way to justify living in sin, as an excuse for adultery or theft, then you agree with Eddie. If you are using your semantics as a way to prevent yourself from having to confront your own sin, then you do not agree with the apostle Paul, nor with Jesus.

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@johnZ

You are right. Jesus never said that keeping the Ten Commandments was not necessary and neither did I. On the other hand He never said it was necessary and neither did I.

What He said and what I am trying to say is Following Jesus is necessary for salvation and to be a Christian. Paul also wrote that one must be baptized by the Holy Spirit by being crucified with Jesus on the Cross so we can be resurrected with Jesus in the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing in this about the Ten Commandments or the Law. Yet this is the answer to your problem of immorality. What you are saying is people are hiding behind Legalism and/or Relativism. This is possible when the Law is the Standard. Jesus does not make the Law the Standard, but Love is the Standard. Indeed the Love of Jesus is the ultimate Standard, so that no one can boast and claim to be justified.

The Christian faith is not about morality. It is about Kingdom building. Morality is involved but it is love for a purpose beyond ourselves, so Legalism and Relativism are not excuses.

As I have tried to say salvation is not based on works or morality, but the right relationship between us and the Father through the Son and the Spirit. Right morality, that is Love, is the result of this right relationship through grace and saving faith in Jesus Christ. None of this is directly related to the Ten Commandments which is why Eddie is mistaken when he tries to make this covenant a part of the Christian faith and this opens the door for Legalism.

We need to be very careful not to let that which is good become the enemy of that which is right. The Pharisees by most standards were very good, moral people, but they used the Law to find fault with Jesus Who is without fault. Thus the good became the enemy of the right. We can do the same thing today.

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Sorry, I attributed a hypothetical statement by Eddie to you. I do think however, that our faith is indeed directly related to the ten commandments, and the law to Love God and neighbor, which sums up those commandments. It is because of our inability to keep those commandments that we need saving faith and God’s grace. While the Pharisees tried to use the law to find fault with Christ, so Christ turned that law back on them also, and condemned them by the law. Some examples were when he cited their use of corban to neglect their parents (the fifth command) and saying that even looking at a woman lustfully was adultery, and hating was murder. We are not condemned by the legalism of the law, but condemned because of our hearts straying desires to contravene the law (and the heart of the law). Jesus sacrifice is directly related to this. So the connection is direct in that way.

But the epistle also says that if we belong to Christ, we will stop sinning.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.(Romans 6)

And also in the first epistle of John:

28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

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@johnZ

Okay, we are close to a breakthrough.

What is our approach? What is the Good News? Do we say, Stop being immoral, because that is wrong?

No, because people cannot obey the Law (which takes many forms besides the Decalogue) with their own strength. That is the weakness of the law that prevents it from saving. Also when people are judged by the law, their natural instinct is to become lawyers in order to determine what they can do and can’t do under the law. This is wrong when used to get around the Spirit of the law.

The law does convict of sin, but Jesus Christ breaks the power of sin over our lives. Our message, our emphasis must be on Jesus and His Kingdom and on Him alone. The Decalogue tells us what not to do, be we cannot live doing nothing, but must live following Jesus. In some sense lots of things tell what not to do, even civil law, but only Jesus gives us unfailing guidance as to what to do to be right with God.

In this sense God the Father is the God of the OT, while Jesus Christ is the God of the NT. God the Father prepared us for Jesus Christ through the Mosaic Covenant, but God did not reveal Godself until the Father sent the Son to reveal the Trinity on Good Friday, Resurrection Sunday, and Pentecost.

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Most of what you said is true. It is no great point being moral if we deny Christ… it may be a societal norm, or it may be a societal benefit, but it will not gain us heaven, nor bring us into union with Christ. Although I remember reading some of George Macdonald’s novels, where he states in one episode that wanting to do what is right (helping the poor) brings his character closer to understanding Jesus. And this is somewhat hinted at in I John verse 7 above.

Yes, the law cannot save us… it condemns us. Do you think I deny this? Do you think Eddie denies this?

Jesus command to love. Yes. We know it and we can say it. But to understand it? As sinners, we confuse love with emotions and feelings. We confuse love with sex. We confuse love with nicey, nicey. Only God’s word can help us to understand love. We would not think that it was loving of God (and Peter) to condemn Annanias and Saffira to death for lying. But yet, it was God’s love for the church that led to their death. We cannot see how God’s love would lead to a penalty of death for rape? We don’t always understand love, neither God’s (the father) love, nor the love of Jesus, who condemned the pharisees for keeping man-made church law while denying God’s law about honoring parents. Nor do we understand our own love.

Nor do we fully understand how to follow Jesus. We see Zaccheus returning four fold of what he took, but the other young ruler who kept the commandments, was asked to sell all he had and follow Christ. The apostles were asked to leave their fishing of fish to go fish for men. But not everyone was asked to do the same. So we have guidance, but in each case we must struggle on our own, and seek out prayerfully God’s will for our life, which will not be the same as the life of someone else.

However, if we are Christians, and if we do not want to keep the basic commands of God/Jesus, then it is no use trying to find God’s will for our life, because if we deny what is plain, we will not be able to do what is more difficult, or what is more hidden. If we do not keep the plain commands, we certainly will not be able to follow Jesus in his more sacrificial expectations.

If we believe in our heart, and confess with our mouth, that Jesus is Lord, then we will be saved. Simple. But also not so simple. Because if we say we believe with our heart, but it doesn’t show in our obedience, then we will be as guilty as Annanias and Sapphira.

I think we must always be careful not to oversimplify… as soon as we think we have it right, we realize that God has put a bigger picture on it.

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@johnZ .
So we have guidance, but in each case we must struggle on our own, and seek out prayerfully God’s will for our life, which will not be the same as the life of someone else.

John,

We are not on our own. That is what the Holy Spirit is all about, that is what faith is about. Yes, I think you know what is right, but you keep expressing doubts as to if it will work. That is not the sign of faith.

No, faith is not simplistic, but it is not that complicated either. Try it, you 'll like it.

Sadly I do not think Eddie understands the gospel. I do not judge him, but that is the impression that I receive. He is more a philosopher than a person of faith.

God forgives us so we should not be afraid of making mistakes. Annanias and Sapphira did not make a mistake, They deliberated lied to make themselves look better. If we say we believe and it does not show in our lives, we must be our own hardest critics. This is the crucial difference between the unsaved who resist criticism and so not admit mistakes and the saved who do.