Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Faith & Science Conversation
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The problem with that argument is that it applies to the whole of the Law, and not just to the Ten Commandments. Circumcision is the sign of the OT covenant. Paul forbid Gentiles to be circumcised to indicate they were under the Old Covenant, because as Christians they were under the New Covenant.

Also the Old Covenant is between God (YHWH) and God’s People, Israel. Gentiles like myself were never under the OT, so they are not bound by it. If a Jew were not circumcised, then presumably he would not be under the old covenant. Thus Jesus did not have to cancel the Old Covenant, but what He did was replace it with a new and better covenant.

This is the New Covenant found in His words in the establishment of the Sacrament of Communion, whereby Jesus indicates that His death and resurrection (and the coming the Holy Spirit) will establish a new relationship between humans and God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is not based on Mosaic law.

In terms of a clarification, I did not have to cancel the friendship which I had with the woman I married before I proposed to her.

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Roger, I should stop getting into these types of discussions. I don’t think they have much to do with science, and especially not with evolutionary science. But, I believe some of your assumptions are wrong. In the first place, some gentiles did participate in the Jewish covenant… we have Rahab and Ruth for example. But we also have specific commands related to participation of other peoples in Hebrew covenant (Exodus 12:48). We know that even Nebuchadnezer was subject to God, and could participate in God’s grace, even though he was from a pagan nation. While the old covenant was primarily with Israel, there are enough exceptions described in the old testament to indicate that God’s covenant of love was bigger than just this people. This became very evident at Pentecost, and later in visions to Peter. Scripture helps us to understand the ceremonial laws of the old covenant, vs the laws that continued to apply to our daily lives after Jesus came. If you don’t like the word “law”, you can change it to “commands”.

Paul did not forbid gentiles to be circumcised (he circumcised Timothy), but he was angry with those who said it was a requirement.

Gentiles were under the old covenant too, but they just didn’t know it. But they were rejected under the conditions of the old covenant, except for those who accepted the conditions. But even there, for the Israelites, merely accepting the outward constraints of the old covenant did not mean a true communion with God, if their hearts were not desiring to serve and love God. This included even in the old testament, to look after the poor and widows and orphans. (Micah 6:6-8, Deuternonomy 14:29, Isaiah 10:2, Malachi 3:5)

This was also Jesus message, to care for the poor and orphans. James 1:27. And to keep ourselves unpolluted from the world.

And I agree that Jesus did not cancel the old covenant, but fulfilled it.

Do we have to keep the ten commandments? I don’t think the number 10 is the issue. But we know we should love God. We should love our neighbor. We know we should not make any idols of anything or worship anything other than the true God. We should not make images of God because that dishonors and diminishes God. We should honor God’s name. We should repect and honor parents (and care for them). We should not steal. We should honor the sabbath rest. We should not lie against others. We should not murder (nor cause others harm). We should not covet what others have, nor resent them having it. We should not be adulterous, nor desire someone else’s wife or husband (nor rape someone, nor live in sexual immorality, incl homosex). When we do any of these things, God is displeased. When we live in these things, we deny God, and we say that we do not really love God. When we confess and repent, God is gracious to forgive us our sins, based on the blood and sacrifice of his son Jesus (God in the flesh). We should have love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. We should teach these things to our children. When God’s spirit lives in us, in our hearts, in our lives, then we will desire to be an overcomer. Then our individual struggle will be victorious in Christ. Then we will no longer be a slave to sin, but a slave to Christ. Then these commands will no longer be burdensome, but will be a new natural outcome of our relationship with God. We will be a born again new creation!

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First of all. Timothy was not a Gentile. He was an ethnic Jew, since his mother was Jewish, even though his father was pagan. There is ambiguity in the Jewish identity. A person born of an ethnic Jewish mother is ethnically Jewish, even though the mother is not a “practicing” Jew and the person may not be a practicing Jew. That is a big difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the Christian Covenant.

The persons you mentioned were not really converted, as we would say, but adopted into the Jewish nation. Even today orthodox rabbis in Israel do not recognize people to be Jews if their mothers were converted to Judaism.

John, you quote the “Fruit of the Spirit,” from Galatians 5, but the fruit of the Spirit is just that, that which grows out of the Holy Spirit. When we act within the Law we put the burden on us, but Paul teaches and you agree we are unable to do right in our own strength. Only when we act within the love of Jesus and the Holy Spirit can we bring forth works pleasing to God, although in truth God does all the heavy work and deserves all the glory, not us.

John, we have been to indoctrinated in Western individualism that we are unable to submit our will to the Lord God and let the Spirit of Love be our Guide, instead of our individualistic sense of morality. Our goal is to build God’s Kingdom with others who might be very different from us. This is the primary reason Jesus came to break down the prejudice between Jews and Gentiles abetted by the law. Now “conservative” Christians are building the same kind of walls between themselves and others who do not share their legalistic views.

Jesus did not die for nothing. God is not pleased.

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I do think God deserves all the glory. He has even given us faith as a gift. Salvation as a gift. The Spirit as Comforter (also a gift). The gospels and all of scripture as guide (also a gift). Even our obedience, only possible thru the spirit, is a gift to us, and then also an offering to God.

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@Eddie wrote

Please be specific and indicate how they relates to the Ten Commandments.

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Serving and loving God is not a duty, but an honor and a privilege.

How some people can say that life is without meaning and purpose is difficult to understand.

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I find it rather an honor to do my duty.

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I’ve always found it interesting, Eddie, how Jesus emphasized most commandments differently from one of them. Hate became murder. Adultery included lust. Idols included wealth. But, for the Sabbath, Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. This seems to be a different emphasis. I find it interesting that all the commands are a gift from God to us, a gift which if accepted and followed, gives us a better life on this earth. (does not earn us salvation, but still is a benefit to us, and still honors God). But the sabbath law, indicates Jesus, was also for our benefit. I see the sabbath therefore as a gift, which we so often toss back in Jesus’ face, as if it was simply a legalistic thing that we no longer need observe. Yet, if it was given for us, then shouldn’t we appreciate it? Shouldn’t we treat it like the gift it is to us? Don’t we disrespect God’s gift when we ignore it? Don’t we take God’s name in vain by mistreating the sabbath, or ignoring it completely? I don’t have perfect answer for this, but this is where my thoughts on it have led me over the years.

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JohnZ,

In the Decalogue the Sabbath is a day of rest. We know that it was also a day of worship also, that is not mentioned.

In the USA (I do not know about other place we had the weekend which seems to combined the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day on Sunday. Saturday was a day of rest, but not complete rest when most working people in the factories and farms got the day off (after doing their chores) and could go to town to shop and relax. Sunday was the day for worship for Christians and could be a day of work for Jews. Of course some businesses were open on Saturday and Sunday.

It seems for many people, the weekend is a time for work.

The Ten Commandments are made for the benefit of humans, not for God. They are the basis for a “civil society,” not a society where each person is for himself or herself as some people would have it.

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@johnZ

FYI Eddie and I have been discussing his view of the Ten Commandments privately.

What it comes down to is this. I understand the Bible to say that there are two basic Covenants and to basic Covenant Laws to go with them.

If one is under the Mosaic Covenant, then one is under the Mosaic Law however one defines it. If one is part of the Christian Covenant of Jesus Christ, then one is governed by Christian Covenantal Law and the Holy Spirit as based on faithful discipleship to Jesus Christ, which of course is not less than the Decalogue but more. Still it is not the same and they should not be confused as It appears to me that Eddie has done…

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Roger, you said, "…based on faithful discipleship to Jesus Christ, which of course is not less than the Decalogue but more. "

Eddie said, “…parts of it, such as the Ten Commandments, can be retained, without denying the necessity of the parts that are new.”

Jesus said, 17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Indeed, I assure you that, while Heaven and earth last, the Law will not lose a single dot or comma until its purpose is complete. This means that whoever now relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do the same will himself be called least in Heaven. But whoever teaches and practises them will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. "

John (me) says, don’t argue about something you agree on.

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@johnZ

The purpose of the Law was complete in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Therefore Christians are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but only under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The Law includes all the cleanliness codes which Christians do not follow, so there is no reason to think that we must obey every dot and coma.

Eddie wants to determine which parts of the OC are valid. Jesus and Paul said that only the New Covenant and Covenant is valid. I follow Jesus and Paul.

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Sorry Roger, you are arguing about something I no longer want to discuss. I am glad you are following Jesus and agreeing with Paul.

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Eddie, if you are still there, I wonder if you have ever read the book, “The Fig Tree Blossoms”, by Paul Liberman. It was lent to us by a friend, and I find it interesting as a discussion about messianic jews. It deals with some of the issues of new vs old covenant from a jewish context, especially for messianic jews, or completed Jews. I am not quite finished reading it, but almost.

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Yes, life is busy. Building projects, work, yardwork, greenhouse, cleaning, barbeques, conferences, etc. It’s nice to be busy, but sometimes I wish for more time. This book suggests that while the early church was mostly Jews, Jewish Christians, they had an uneasy relationship with the rabbinic jews, and eventually also uneasy with the gentiles, who became dominant in the church. Paul’s suggestion that the gentiles did not need to participate in all the old testament feasts and customs, eventually became a law for the gentiles so that they wanted to make the jews into gentile christians, completely putting aside all jewish heritage. Yet, Jesus was a Jew. So the book advocates for approval of the Jewish heritage as Jewish believers could be called completed Jews. As long as it was not mandatory, it became enriching for them(messianic Jews, or Jewish believers) to celebrate some of the old testament feast days such as Passover, possibly circumcision, feast of weeks, while acknowleding Jesus as the fulfillment of the Torah and the Prophets.