How can ECs call themselves Christians?

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

Well when you read stuff people here write it should come as no surprise…I think this is the only organisation that calls itself Christian who also has people claim:
“Primarily about the cross. God does not send Jesus to die. God does not require Jesus’ death in order to forgive humanity’s sin. I argue that God did not will the cross . . . Christ’s death was not part of God’s divine plan.”
—BioLogos contributor Joseph Bankard

Honestly, a person who could call themselves Christian and believe this kind of nonsense is not doing this cause any favours.
The entire reason for the existence of the scriptures is exactly because we sinned, brought death to this world as a result of sin, and Jesus (God) died a PHYSICAL DEATH on the cross to save us from the wages of sin and to physically return at the second coming redeem us to himself.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

I fail to see the relevance of the half life theory.
If God created Adam and Eve as adults, and the earth as a fully functioning system, the universe fully functioning, why exactly must we be forced to claim the entirety of all creation is not also mature at creation?
In terms of the universe, if it’s endless as appears to be the case according to science, does not this support the Bible claim about God (ie he is endless, timeless, always existed).
Why then must the earth, a fully functioning system have to have components that were not there to begin with?
Your whole proposition is so deeply flawed theologically it’s ridiculous!
Unless you take the Bible as 100% fact and then mould you science around that fact, then I’m sorry but you are lost!
The reality is, both secular science and creation science think this theistic evolutionary theology is nonsense.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

Unless you take the Bible as 100% fact and then mould you science around that fact, then I’m sorry but you are lost!

So you believe that the earth doesn’t move, just like the Bible says?

@adamjedgar

If God created Adam and Eve as adults, and the earth as a fully functioning system, the universe fully functioning, why exactly must we be forced to claim the entirety of all creation is not also mature at creation?

And this takes us into Last Thursdayism

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@adamjedgar

I fail to see the relevance of the half life theory.

We know. God has engineered multiple elapsed time clocks into his creation for us to discover and learn how to use. YECs turn him into the Great Falsifier, rather blasphemous, don’t you think, creating the appearance of history that doesn’t exist?

You also made my point about extinct radioactive nuclides. Thank you.

New evidence always supports the antiquity of the earth, and it continues to build. It is worse than sad that YECism is so frequently so closely identified with Christianity as to be integral to it.
 

Explain this away (by a Christian… note the word ‘providential’):

The World’s Largest Rock Tumbler is an Unusual Testimony to an Ancient Earth

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

If you say “the Bible says”. Would you at least quote the Bible passage/s where your claim comes from!

The article you quote about the rock tumbler actually proves the flood…it’s does not deny it.
The Bible clearly indicates the catastrophic nature of the flood and the unstable earthly environment in the centuries after. Earthquakes at the time of the flood were massive and numerous…it is quite clear to creation scientists that these earthquakes as suggested in your quoted article support us in the YEC movement…not you!

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@beaglelady

So you believe that the earth doesn’t move, just like the Bible says?

@adamjedgar

If you say “the Bible says”.

It’s been done so many times here, but you’re new, or maybe you don’t know your Bible well enough…
 

Evolution OR Creation use Science Fact and Biblical Truth

Psalm 104:5: “Thou has fixed the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…” And that’s just a start. In the Bible, the universe consists of three tiers: heaven above, earth in the middle, and the underworld below. And the earth rests on pillars.

[beaglelady]

@Dale

It’s been done so many times here, but you’re new:

Thanks! 

[T_aquaticus]

@adamjedgar

If God created Adam and Eve as adults, and the earth as a fully functioning system, the universe fully functioning, why exactly must we be forced to claim the entirety of all creation is not also mature at creation?

What we see in the universe is a history, not maturity. To use Adam and Eve as an analogy, would God create Adam with scars from a bear attack he never suffered? Would Eve have a calcium deposit on her leg consistent with a leg break she never suffered?

The Earth has a history spanning billions of years just like scars collected over a lifetime. These have nothing to do with function since the Earth would function just fine without them.

@adamjedgar

The reality is, both secular science and creation science think this theistic evolutionary theology is nonsense.

I would suggest that you are a theistic chemist, a theistic meteorologist, and a theistic scientist in general. Do you accept the scientific description of how atoms interact and how storms form? Do you think God is still involved in those processes in some way?

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

@adamjedgar

Honestly, a person who could call themselves Christian and believe this kind of nonsense is not doing this cause any favours.

Note that Bankard states that he argues that position, not that everyone or even he believes it fully explains the theology of salvation. The quote is taken out of context with the article, and I would invite you to read the entire article in context, and hear your thoughts of the points he makes. Here is the link again to make it easy: Substitutionary Atonement and Evolution - BioLogos

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

Here are the cross references for Psalm 104. Might i suggest that you need some theological instruction here as you clearly do not understand the point of Psalm 104 at all!!!

1 Samuel 2:8
He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap. He seats them among princes and bestows on them a throne of honor. For the foundations of the earth are the LORD’s, and upon them He has set the world.

Job 38:4
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.

Psalm 24:2
For He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

Proverbs 8:29
when He set a boundary for the sea, so that the waters would not surpass His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

Micah 6:2
Hear, O mountains, the LORD’s indictment, you enduring foundations of the earth. For the LORD has a case against His people, and He will argue it against Israel:

Treasury of Scripture

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

who laid the foundations of the earth.

Psalm 24:2
For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

Psalm 33:9
For he spake, and it was done ; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Psalm 136:6
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

that is

Psalm 93:1
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@adamjedgar

ahahahaha, you quote

Backatcha. I didn’t quote, @beaglelady did and I cited. [content removed by moderator] You have also failed to address the girdled rocks and extinct radioactive nuclides.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

Hi Dale, the nuclides are an interesting one…may i ask a couple of questions just for the sake of ensuring we are on the same page…

(this forum engine appears to have dns and caching issues at present…its having problems distinguishing between my posts so i have to put some nonsense in the middle here to overcome that problem)

Ok so back to the response i have for you…

how were the missing nuclides discovered?
what is their origin?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Answer about the girdled rocks and then I’ll take the time to address the extinct nuclides.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@adamjedgar

you clearly do not understand the point of Psalm 104 at all!!!

Backatcha. Again. Psalm 104 is a Creation Psalm. If death was evil before the fall, why isn’t it evil after? Because in any case, the psalmist is praising God for providing prey for lions.

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@Dale

– they ignore this:

And that it would destroy every composite particle, among other things.

[Fernando (Fernando Adventius)]

If we tweak let say +/- 1%, the ratio between Gravitational Constant, G and electrostatic constant, k (which contains the vacuum permittivity and vacuum permeability) the universe as we know it may collapse or the laws of physics must become radically different, many laws of physics must be recalibrated.

If we multiply or divide the constants by 2x, the universe might even shrink that light may accumulate or trapped in space time.

We can’t, so far, tweak these constants because they’re very consistent. The speed of light, C (which also contains the vacuum permittivity and vacuum permeability) has been very consistent and very constant, and so is the Gravitational Constant, G.

The fact is: we can’t tweak them and even in simulation when C is multiplied 2x, the laws of physics will become inconsistent and indeterminate.

I do think the universe, as we know it, is fine-tuned.

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@T_aquaticus

like the speed of light

Which ironically, would decrease decay rates.

@Paraleptopecten

The binding energy of atoms is tied to E=mc^2, thus c increasing dramatically slows nuclear decay, but keeps the overall energy output constant. A 2,000,000 fold increase in c, which is the minimum needed for fitting starlight into 6,000 years, would make the half-life of 14C about 2x10^16 years, but would make each decay about 4x10^12 times more energetic. A 70 kg person normally gets about 40,000 Bq from the 14C in them, with a total energy of 10^-9 W. They would now experience one decay every three years, each of which would have an energy of 0.01 J. So, not likely to kill you, but not good for you either.

[beaglelady]

@adamjedgar

If you say “the Bible says”. Would you at least quote the Bible passage/s where your claim comes from!

Dale did it for me. There are others. So does the earth really move (rotate, etc) or not?

And btw, did Adam and Eve have bellly buttons, since they were never born? And did they ever have baby teeth?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Fernando

I do think the universe, as we know it, is fine-tuned.

I do too, but I don’t think it is a scientific argument. But I like this, a fine tuning self-selection effect rebuttal:

…it is said that we only find ourselves in a universe that permits life, therefore we shouldn’t be surprised to find it having the characteristics we do.

Imagine, however, trying to explain the finely-tuned arrangements of your own home this way. “I would never consider the unique characteristics of my home unless I were living in it so of course I will notice these details.” But that is not finally an explanation for the house or the details. Why this house rather than no house at all? Saying “I’m living in it” does not offer any explanatory scope or power as to how the house came about in the first place or why the numbers behind it are the way they are.

Penrose just seems to say, “Well, I find the house very curious and convenient, but beyond that, I don’t know. It is a puzzle the plumbing is just right, or the oven works so uncannily well or that the lights are just the right brightness or the electricity is channeled throughout the house in such a remarkably useful way. Maybe some sort of science fiction story might finally provide an answer, but I don’t know.”

www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Unbelievable-blog/What-s-stopping-Roger-Penrose-from-believing-that-God-created-the-Universe

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@adamjedgar

Here are the cross references for Psalm 104.

You have just referenced a pile of verses which in plain and simple language depicts the earth firmly upon steadfast and immobile foundation.

@adamjedgar

Unless you take the Bible as 100% fact and then mould you science around that fact, then I’m sorry but you are lost!

Unless you take the Bible as 100% fact and then accept a flat and unmoving earth, then I’m sorry but you are lost!