Dying in the Name of Vaccine Freedom

No vaccine is effective for 100% of the population. They are definitely effective at preventing infection for most individuals. But there is no way to tell if you will be one of the individuals who whose body will fight off the virus before it infects you or not, so the best situation is not to have the virus being spread around in your community. The more vaccinated people, the harder it is for a virus to find new hosts because it will get killed off in most people instead of getting passed along to multiple new hosts.

No this isn’t right. An infection is when a microbe is able to begin multiplying in cells faster than your body is able to kill it off. The antibodies produced by vaccines or previous infection recognize those specific pathogens and kill them off quickly before they can successfully multiply and cause an infection.

In the 10% or so of the population that experiences a breakthrough infection despite vaccination, the symptoms are generally lessened because the immune system is better prepared with antibodies to fight the infection even if they weren’t strong enough of a defense to give total immunity. That is why people who are vaccinated and have breakthrough infections are less likely than unvaccinated to be hospitalized.

It depends on if we are talking about individuals or groups. Individuals with COVID infections are responsible for spreading COVID. That is why it is recommended that even vaccinated people wear masks indoors in areas with high community spread. You just don’t know if you might be one of the people who gets a breakthrough infection and spreads the virus to others. However if we are speaking about groups not individuals, the unvaccinated contingent of the population is more responsible for current outbreaks because they are the contingent of the population that responsible for spreading most of the cases, simply because they are many times more likely to become infected and contagious in the first place.

You missed the part about my friend who is dying of COVID even though she already had COVID. The protection you get from antibodies from an infection is not as good or as long lasting as the protection you get from a vaccine. There are studies and data to back this up. You are less protected against infection and you are less protected against severe symptoms if you get infected and you are only relying on immunity produced by a prior infection.

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All you had to do was look at the picture, no reading required. :slightly_smiling_face:

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This isn’t right. Vaccinated are less likely to get infected, but if they do, they have similar viral loads as unvaccinated.

Data from COVID-19 tests in the United States, the United Kingdom and Singapore are showing that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta SARS-CoV-2 can carry as much virus in their nose as do unvaccinated people.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

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Oh, and Steve is smarter and far more qualified than me. But I don’t think we are contradicting each other here.

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This isn’t right.

And as I explained above, this idea that vaccines are just symptom reducers isn’t right either.

Vaccines don’t cause mutations, I don’t know where you got that idea.

The virus responsible for the 1918 influenza pandemic still circulates today. But it was much deadlier then, mainly because humans today are descended from people who survived the infection more than a hundred years ago and so they’ve inherited some form of genetic immunity, Calvignac-Spencer said.

Also, the Spanish flu became more deadly as the pandemic wore on because of mutations. Mutations part of normal virus evolution, not a response to vaccines.

Their findings suggest that the virus mutated to become more effective between the first and later waves, by evolving to better overcome cellular defenses against infection, Calvignac-Spencer said.

The genetic mutations that popped up between the first and second waves may have made the virus better adapted to spreading among humans, rather than between birds, its natural hosts. Another mutation may have changed how the virus interacts with a human protein known as MxA, which helps orchestrate the body’s immune response to new pathogens.

Although scientists don’t know for sure how the genetic variations changed the behavior of the virus, “it’s predicted that these changes helped the virus to evade one of the mechanisms that [human] cells use to shut down influenza viruses,” he said.

The same process of viral evolution can be seen in the current COVID-19 pandemic, he said. “It’s interesting to make parallels — for example, the fact that there were multiple successive waves is a pattern which is intriguing.”

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All you have to do is walk outside on a cold day with a well-fitted KF94 or KN95 mask to see how few aerosols escape the mask.

The former president refused to wear a mask and refused to let the thousands of people he had indoors contact with wear masks, so it was basically inevitable that he would get COVID. I’m glad his army of doctors using experimental treatments were able to help him recover.

Best,
Chris Falter

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What approach would you suggest?

Absolutely not. Mutations occur when the virus is replicating, i.e., reproducing and spreading in sick people’s bodies. More reading for you to do, I’m afraid.

Forget the thought experiments – surgical masks work. See https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y

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That’s probably not true in the era of Delta. Multiple recent studies are showing something like 40% effectiveness at preventing infection with Delta for the Pfizer vaccine, with Moderna probably doing somewhat better. Some of the loss of effectiveness is probably due to Delta, more because of its rapid replication than because it can evade immunity – it isn’t particularly good at the latter (unlike Beta, Gamma, and Mu). But a lot of the change is the result of decreasing antibody levels in the vaccinated as time goes on. People still have protection against severe disease because of T cells and memory B cells that can eventually tame an infection, but they no longer have enough circulating antibodies to snuff out the virus before it can get a foothold.

Moderna may be better because it has a larger dose than Pfizer, but the difference (if real) may also be because of the slightly longer time between doses for Moderna. Longer spacing is expected to yield more durable immunity, based on previous vaccines. The spacing for the two doses for the mRNA vaccines was not chosen to optimize immunity; it was chosen to expedite testing of the vaccine and make it available as soon as possible. How long immunity will last after a well-spaced booster… we’ll have to wait and see.

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One virus, smallpox, has been completely eradicated worldwide vaccination, and we no longer need to be vaccinated against it. Polio is almost gone but continues to percolate in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Other viruses, like measles, can be kept to very low levels within a country like the US, but near-universal vaccination is required to sustain that state.

Vaccination works to reduce the spread of viruses and even to eliminate them because it reduces the infection rate. It doesn’t have to be 100% effective to work; it just have to reduce the rate enough that local outbreaks die out.

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Thank you for your time and answers.

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I have heard that flu numbers are down to almost non-existant. That would have a a few possible reasons.:
1, the flu is getting counted as covid, which would mean the covid cases and deaths are greatly inflated and false panic inducing.
or 2. The flu, which is a virus spread via droplets, and the masking and distancing has been helping slow the spread of that. Which in this case shows that masks and social distancing and better hygiene has saved quite a few lives as many do die from the flu.
or 3. just the lack of flu testing period so their are less positives.

I think it is a combo of 2 and 3 with a dash of 1 thrown in there.

I know this is more correlation and not causation, but it is very interesting.

I am not against wearing one and do it fairly often. I am more against making it a law. Just like I am against sneezing in someones face…but I wouldn’t make a law about it. I have had one sneak up on me before and it comes out before you know it or your hands are full ect. Should I be charged a crime for it or penalized? It’s life. Kids might not want to wear masks, parents don’t have ultimate control of their kinds, it’s hard. I could be a polite thing to do, a societal norm, whatever, but not a law. I guess it isn’t a law, congress can only make laws. It is a federal mandate, and that is why you can’t go to prison for it, you only go to prison for breaking laws. But there shouldn’t be a mandate or a fine for not wearing one.

Outside I am very against forced masks and I will never wear one and I don’t think I will ever harm anyone from it, the airflow is high enough to dissipate it. Then again, I don’t live in NYC or Tokyo with concentration of 1000’s of people at an intersection. I could maybe understand it more there outside.

Yes, in close proximity to ones face wear droplets easily get ejected or one could eject droplets into an open wound, a mask is a good idea. I wouldn’t go to a surgeon that doesn’t wear a mask. But I also wouldn’t fine them or accuse them of killing grandma, I just wouldn’t go to them if they made it clear they don’t wear masks.

Though I am not that big on masks, and I wanted mask to be promoted back in Feb of '20 as a precaution that might have helped. I am HUGELY against the “lockdown” and how that is a pandemic that will have cost exponentially more lives than is saved. The cancer screenings that went down in 2020, the overdoses, the suicides resulting from, the psychological issues it caused will scar the world for a long time to come.

Be careful using that “free” word…Nothing is free…It’s all relative. We the people of America paid for those vaccines…and some of us would have rather saved more lives with it.
It drives me nuts to hear the vaccine is “free”.
Do you know how many people die from starvation in the world every year. 9 million people. 1 trillion dollars buys a lot of food. That is 100 thousand dollars per PERSON for food for that year… or 5 grand a year for 20 years. The amount of tax dollars wasted on this vaccine is beyond ridiculous when considering on what else it could have been spent on.

And lets not count how many lives in the womb would be saved if abortions were outlawed or if they were given 1 trillion in “free” money to be adopted or support the parents financially as opposed to kill them. There are 45 million of those a year globally. Granted 1 trillion doesn’t go quite as far when it is spread out even more.

lol well I am not an english major (cue"“that’s obvious to me since you can’t read” insult from @Dale). but that is more transparent and more importantly humble than the approach used now. Obviously it should be cleaned up a bit.

An interesting fact about this. If people died within 14 days after getting that vaccine, they count it as an unvaccinated death. and to be fair, I am pretty sure it was that vaccine that killed them, and they probably would have died from covid had they got it naturally. But, this does skew statistics. I know the vaccine hasn’t had time to “work” yet and I understand why they don’t count less than 14 days as vaccinated, but if I am right above and it is the vaccine that killed them (as most vaccine deaths are within 14 days of getting it) as much as the virus would have, then you can say the vaccine wouldn’t benefit them any. It wouldn’t have them, not only would it not benefit them, but remove those cases from statistics.

But yes, here is a study that says vaccinated (after 14 days) get a massive boost in antibodies, but it wanes in time, and the natural immunity has more antibodies over time that don’t seem to fade.

I read an article (i can try to look it up if you don’t believe me but it was a while back and don’t have the data to prove it now but I can try to find it.) where they found I think it was 20 people from the 1918, who got the spanish flu, tested their antibodies (back in 2002 I think it was) and 18 of them still had antibodies.

Those that don’t have symptoms, they won’t develop antibodies, but apparently they don’t need them either, and neither will they spread covid.

Would you not agree to an negative antibody test before mandating a vaccine? (not that you are really in a position to make that, but king for a day).

If the vaccine is such a low risk, then why wouldnt’ the FDA approve a booster for those under 65? So there isn’t no risk for the vaccines. Why should a person with natural antibodies take that risk if studies are still being done and it seems it is almost as effective, but even more widely effective. In that studies are showing natural antibodies are WAY more effective at variants, including the delta, where the vaccine is almost non effective and requires boosters…boosters which aren’t even FDA approved under 65.

Here is a peer reviewed study that shows the vaccinated get about antibody titer of about 9000 reducing to 300 in 10 months. But the natural antibodies only start at about 600, but only reduce to 500 by 10 months.

Some more food for thought. https://files.catbox.moe/ax71w6.MP4

This is an excerpt from cnn where Dr. Danjay Gupta is saying basically that some studies are showing that natural immunity is as good if not better than the vaccination, what do you say? And Fauci said “…I don’t have a firm answer on that…” If the head of infection diseases doesn’t know what to say with regards are vaccines worth the risk to give to those with natural antibodies, why do many on here so certain that it is? I am not saying it is or isn’t better. But there seems to be much certainty on this forum that it is. And yall are very biologically knowledgeable folks. But it seems like the theoretical knowledge of these topics seem to be different when reality hits.

I didn’t miss it, I am sorry to hear about that. It wouldn’t be right to say that there is no certainty that a vaccination would have saved their live. But that isn’t right to ‘kick someone while they are down’. So I just didn’t want to touch that topic. But I did read that, and I am I sorry for your loss.

I agree, but unvaccinated isn’t needed. Or you could even add that is is painful to watch a lived one who had type 2 diabetes die form covid unnecessarily. If only the media emphasized how a more healthy lifestyle could have prevented that death.

it is an interesting article linking diabetes type 2 to dying from covid. Something to do with the SETDB2 enzme found that basically prevents their wounds from healing properly. The mechanism behind the deadly cytokine storms triggered by the spike protein.

78% of people that died from covid were obese. So take 12% of those that died. We can round it at 4 mil in the world.480,000 deaths from covid in non-obese compared to 3.1 mil obese…

If you greatly cared of the health of others, you think the media would be screaming about being more healthy. Eating less carbs (insert standard advise for a type 2 diabetic), exercising, better sleep, less stress ect.

But I know that there are a few very healthy people that die from covid. I also knew of very fit and healthy people that die from a stroke. We are mortal, things kill us. We are not in control of how or when, nor are we to fear it. Yea, this is why we make medicines and vaccines to lower that if we can. And since all of that money was already wasted on a vaccine (that could have been spent saving many more lives), we might as well get vaccinated (if you don’t have natural immunity. ) at least in the name of those who starved to death and could have used that trillion to save their lives.

I would hope none of what I said above would sway anyone who hasn’t been infected yet to not get the vaccine and if they are above age 12 to go ahead and get it. But no one with natural antibodies should be required or coerced to get the vaccine. More, that I think vaccine isn’t the end all be all like it seems to be made out to be. We should still research on treatments for it, as it can kill even the vaccinated.

That is what should be touted on the news. The truth. Inform us how it might not work, but it will help if more get it. Don’t mandate it and elevate the efficacy of it.

That being said. Do you believe we will ever get rid of the cold (original corona virus)? Or the flu for that matter? Is this going to be just like a flu, where we make a shot with multiple variants guessing which ones we might see? and the usual 50% of the population gets the shot and still a few hundred thousand die (mostly the elderly and obese).

Which I think is the crux. I think most are either scared to die themselves, and are scared of others spreading it to them and killing them, that is why they have no problem stealing the food from starving people to develop a vaccine. Or their lives are inconvenienced by this and they want it gone and they believe if everyone is vaccinated it will go back to normal. Or they are virtue signaling and want to look more caring than they actually are. Or they are truly ignorant of the other ways money could be spent and save many more lives. But it certainly isn’t in the name of “saving lives” or their would be far more outcry about other horrendous things of this world that need to be more denounced and or funded against or for.

I would hope that most are in the ignorant group, that just think a vaccine is free and a vaccine could save a few lives, so why not make one. Not realizing that it isn’t free and that massive amount of money could be SO much better spent and save MANY more lives.

You want the executive branch to overreach their power on something, mandate all strip clubs and whatever other venues are uses as sex trafficking are removed. Or mandate all get basic levels or exercise a week and limit their diet to more healthy foods or limit the stores to selling more healthy foods or make healthy foods cheaper. Since we seem to have trillions of dollars to spend and we can abuse our constitution rights on a whim.

I would hope none of what I said above would sway anyone who hasn’t been infected yet to not get the vaccine and if they are above age 12 to go ahead and get it. But no one with natural antibodies should be required or coerced to get the vaccine. More, that I think vaccine isn’t the end all be all like it seems to be made out to be. We should still research on treatments for it, as it can kill even the vaccinated.

Most ERs this past flu season tested for both on every person with fever and respiratory symptoms. OneER doc I know says she saw 2 positive flu tests last winter vs. hundreds of positive Covid tests, so I think your #2 is the answer there.

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So lets get those studies out there and tell people the truth. Just inform them that it seems that the masks do have an positive effect on curbing droplet spread viruses like the flu as proven last year. Thats it. Inform, not mandate anything, just inform. Watch the wearing of masks indoors that you see go up exponentially (especially during flu season), and the cases of flu stay down and many more lives saved, just through information, not dictating. Sure there are some that might not. But those outlier would be so few it would still have a beneficial effect.

But I also know of the CDC U.S. Influenza Surveillance System: Purpose and Methods | CDC

shows people were monitored for ILE (influenza like symptoms), not lab conformed influenza.

I am not saying it was not tested at all, but certainly less than previous years. I will stand by my claim of 2 mixed with 3, with a dash of 1.

I have an unvaccinated relative who was in the hospital for 2 weeks and will be on oxygen for months. He is in his forties and previously healthy. His medical bills will be in the 6 figures, and could have been prevented had he taken the vaccine. Multiply that story by millions.

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I am glad it sounds like he is doing better now. I will say it is potentially true that he could have prevented those bills if vaccinated. But that is a fair point. I didn’t think of the medical bills.

Though his insurance will pay for much of that, and I can only assume they are getting govt subsidies too. I know hospitals are getting more for covid patients and FEMA is assisting in paying for a funeral if you die from covid. I won’t touch on how that could potentially lead many to falsify numbers and inflate them for monetary gain…

It is very difficult to wrap our heads around trillions and that we aren’t in a vacuum and that decisions effect more than we realize. How much money was lost due to the lockdown? Some studies suggest around 9 trillion. Money isn’t really lost, more accurately transferred. I am not an economist though. If we covered 9 million medical cost of 100k, that would cost 1 trillion. An we still aren’t accounting for the 9 trillion lost. I still think we would have been much better off going “Sweeden” and going with natural immunity.

Another interesting study is that it seems that this effects those with “A” blood type much more than those with “O”.

I don’t think hospitals are saving money by treating unvaccinated COVID patients in their overflowing ICU units.
 
And this, last night:

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