Dale and Klax's exchanges about ... everything

Faith & Science Conversation
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Aye Robin.

‘Jesus paid much too high a price if salvation could just come from being a Goody Goody and donating to charity a couple times a year (or the like). "“All your righteousnesses are as filthy rags…” and that comes from the Old Testament.’

I know it back to front Robin. It’s full of grace. What has works, faith included, got to do with grace?

(I’m sure the frauds on Mt. Ararat had recreated the ark complete with animal cages for the ignorant to part with their money. I’ve stood in the cages in the pit below the arena in Trier.)

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That is precisely why it was done, and why the only archaeologist on the Chinese team broke with the group and gave interviews re that fact elsewhere. The fact that even Answers in Genesis gave it all a thumbs-down tells ya something!

But that was just an example. I am sure that many or most on these boards have heard that tidbit…

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Aye, fools and their money. But we’ve been fooled for 500 years by man full of murderous hate.

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So trust in Christ has no eternal value for it is not needed to enter into His kingdom. Read all of the words of Jesus, belief in Him is wht saves a person from condemnation.
Paul in Romans expands on the fact that belief in Christ is what is necessary to escape the wrath and justice of God.
Through Jesus’ s trust in the Father He has opened the way for those who believe in Him t

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Klax…that is why it says “there is none that does good, no not one…” which includes you and me as well…

And no…my sympathy is with those in that Chinese group who believed that these Kurds had really found something. But apparently the various prominent YEC groups were willing to follow the science and call it for what it was… The fault lies with those who sought to deceive, not the other group…Those who called a spade a spade… did so in order to prevent that “fools and their money” scenario. …

The biblical text goes back further than 500 years…

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Aye Robin. And? What is your point about the fact that we all fail to love? As I have here with Dale, for a start? YEC following science eh? Miracles will never cease. The Bible text was completed over a thousand years before Luther, yes.

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Correct @Cody_G. It has nothing whatsoever to do with us. It’s all to do with Him. His faithfulness. Our pathetic, inadequate, failed work of His gift of faith has no eternal implication at all. What makes you think I haven’t read all the words of Jesus many times, at least as much as you if not more? Belief in Him avails nothing without works of course. But they have no impact whatsoever on His saving grace, on His faithfulness in saving all. As Paul says in Romans. Through His trust in the Father He has opened the way for all.

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Well everyone you heard it here. In Christ we are free to do whatevet comes to mind. No more pressing on to the high calling thats in Christ. Sin all you want, ALL WILL BE WELL. Obey all you want, it doesnt matter, ALL WILL BE WELL. No sheep and goats, just you with freedom in Christ. All this time I thought Jesus was an example for use to follow but in truth He is just a tool for us to use. No sinner or saint just ALL WILL BE WELL. The Father will say to the sheep and goats (if there were any) “Enter into the Kingdom that was prepared for you from the foundation of the earth”. No Lake Of Fire, No weeping and wailing. No outer darkness. No wrath of the Lamb. Whether your name is written in the Book of Life or not, ALL WILL BE WELL. WHY suffer persecution for Him, ALL WILL BE WELL. Why preach faith, love and obedience to Jesus when it will only cause the world to hate you? Just be united with it and do whatever brings pleasure, whatever the consequences it doesnt mater. ALL WILL BE WELL, ALL WILL BE WELL. The good news is that because of Christ we really can continue in sin.

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Thank you Klax. I almost backslid while I was reading the words of Jesus and again got caught up in that damnimable hearecy of believing it was wrong to lust after my neighbors atractive wife. Now I understand that it doesnt matter if I go visit her while he is gone. We are told to love our neighbors, oh there I go again, obeying Jesus. I just cant get this whole ALL WILL BE WELL thing straight.

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I do not understand why anyone would want to be evil in this life in the light of Jesus’ faithfulness, on the cross, when there is so much injustice, suffering, inequality that only His incarnation in us by the Spirit, only we as His hands, feet, arms, ears, mouths, minds, wallets can possibly affect. Like Karl Barth I’m not universalist in the absurd sense you portray, that anything goes; eat, drink and fornicate and the hell with everybody else, there are no consequences. There certainly are. For every idle word. Like him I’m universalist in that there is only one way to be, like Christ. There is no license for evil in Christ. For stepping over starving beggars on the way to the orgy, in Christ. Christ is the universal. His faithfulness is universal. The great commission is to be good news to the poor, the lonely, the sick, the dispossessed, the lost, the broken, the imprisoned, the debauched. To be Christ to them. Reaching to what we will grasp fully in the resurrection. No universalist I’ve ever heard of has ever behaved as irresponsibly, gracelessly, ungratefully as you describe. Quite the contrary. Whereas many damnationist Christians have. And they’re saved, no? Even in your nightmare soteriology. The guards at Auschwitz were Christian. They’re OK. The Jews get to burn twice. Second time forever. Your fallacious straw man parody utterly fails. Nobody operates like that. If they do, then they are in for the Hell of a lot of shame in confrontation, answering for their behaviour, deconstruction, restitution, restorative justice and apocatastasis, reconstruction, before they’re fit for eternal purpose.

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There you go again making it sound better to obey and live for Jesus in this life. Why burden people with your opinion, as I said before, chill out.
Why would there be shame in confrontation, our good works are of no advantage as others evil works are no disadvantage. You make it sound like obedience for love and trust in Christ brings a different outcome than those who don’t have it.

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No the ultimate outcome is the same for all. The journey is unique for each. I’m burdening no one. The yoke is light.

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So you are saying that if I obey Jesus commands then there will be an easier, less painful transition into His Kingdom. So I earn an easier deconstruction and reconstruction if I obey. Obviously since you said our faith has nothing to do with it, it must be an easier transition because of our works.

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Your last statement almost sounded scary, “they are in for a Hell of a lot of shame in confrontation, answering for their behaviour…”. That threat of Hell aand Shamenation for my behavior almost terrifies me enough to repent and start doing good works. Almost. But as you say, ALL WILL BE WELL. Whats a quick moment of feeling shame compared to a life here of no fears of wrath or judgement and not being hated by the world for obeying Jesus.
So your saying that those who do good works because of faith in Jesus now are more saved than those who dont. Doing good works now makes the final salvation easier because our good works promted by faith are saving us some right now. Thats interesting, partial salvation by faith and good works.
I added faith to goods works because it is apparent that you are doing good works because of your faith in what Jesus commanded us to do. So you do believe works prompted by faith is causing you to be saved from a more severe, hellish shameful deconstruction and reconstruction. So you really do believe that faith and works is involved in your salvation. This is very confusing. So this is what your 500 year old book proclaims.

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I wonder what happens when the God who in providence micromanages :laughing: his children’s lives to their delight also turns out to be the one who punishes sin and promises judgement, separating sheep from goats and children of the promise from children of wrath. You will have to charge God with wrongdoing, unlike Job and as you very much in effect already have.

You have no experience of the reality of him and all you have is the god of your rationalizations.

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Of course it is @Cody_G. Just as Jesus says. Twice.

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A quick moment in eternity like our scintilla of existence now. Yes. But we’ll all have to give account of every idle word, will we not? Those of us who think we’ll have an easy time because of our works will still have to explain why fear played a part in that. Have that deprogrammed. Will still have to deconstruct what we’re covering up. Stand naked. It will be the most wonderful, terrifying, awesome, unbelievable, cathartic, shameful, therapeutic experience of our lives. All of each of all of our lives. Together in common humanity. To make restitution, to restore and be restored. Would you want to have to explain why knowing that all is well in the faithfulness of Christ you were deliberately graceless, loveless, hateful? It will be easier on Hitler. I don’t see where the confusion lies.

There is no formula in love but love. It finds a way. We are loved that we might love. The duty of those who know that they are loved, that all are loved, is to love all. One cannot live in the light of all being well for all, by not making it well for all now. The Kingdom is now. That was Jesus’ first public statement. What would one say to the starving, crippled beggar one stepped over, on the way to the drunken, coked up orgy, in the resurrection? “It’s all right mate, I knew you’d get here, that all would be well for you, so I stepped over you in your comfortless, meaningless, endless agony, on the way to pleasuring myself as if I died tomorrow and ceased to exist. I knew you’d understand. No harm done right? You shoulda bin there!! I did you a favour mate, you died quicker by my deliberate, merciful neglect and look at you now!”. Looks like a fallacious parody to me. As well as an utter failure to love as commanded. Such a parody of a human being will have to have much pruned, down to the stump, and much growing to do. Such people do exist now of course. As in all of us who walk on by. And we all do. Don’t we. We who think we stand.

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I was worried about you Dale! Hope everything’s all right. I’m sure it is, you’ve just got a life, eh?

Of course it isn’t all right as you cannot, will not, yet see through the lens of love. What went wrong mate? Luther went wronger on top of Augustine’s wrong shoulders. You stand on their depravity and have no way down. Scary isn’t it?

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So faith and obedience does have a part in our salvation?

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Of course it does. Jesus makes that very plain. Those who’ve said the sinner’s prayer and carry on walking by in their privilege, abusing those in debt to them, are in for an extremely rude awakening. Some shock therapy. Some correctional pruning. They are going to see slavers and gang members, the debauched, the depraved going forward in the ultimate altar call before them. For a start they will have the problem of not realising that they need to repent. They’re going to be left behind in the outer darkness and wonder why.

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