Ascetism is to deny oneself worldly pleasures. That would be to deny the many gifts of this life that God has given then.
Richard
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In some ways it has superseded it, but ‘civilized’ society must always fail to address social injustice. Until we get to arcologies with social credit. Gaza would be the perfect place to start.
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As I said above, “I think many of us Christians could very much use a large dose of asceticism.” Not that we should embrace it completely. We should use it to temper the opposite extreme many fall into.
Follow God and it leads to you forego daily pleasures, do so. It is causes you to preach the gospel from your private jet, then do that. Listening to God is all we can hope to do.
Perhaps. And perhaps we need to worry less about our future, trust God more and look at the Lillies of the field. I’m not there nor do I think excuses for why I am not are appropriate.
Blessed are the poor. Your heart is where your treasure is stored. I doubt anyone thinks we should not use our gifts and talents for the good of the gospel though. Only a strain because everyone wants more more more. And if everyone gave more there would be no strain on the system. I would say to be careful how much we water down the message of Jesus because it is inconvenient to capitalism or our current way of life.
Vinnie
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I think you have crossed the line from practicality to idealism.
I suggest you reread Ecclesiastes. Everything in moderation. including piety and puritanism.
Richard
Possibly, and I think Ecclesiastes has some wisdom to offer us but the brunt of my worldview comes from Jesus and he seems to have had very high standards for would be followers. Even Paul, the apostle Jesus specially appeared to and appointed, in our own scripture, is careful to distinguish between what he writes and what Jesus said. All roads come from and go through Christ for me.
When I read the gospels I see a Jesus that intensified several laws. Adultery? Don’t even lust. Murder? Don’t even be angry. I think practicality and idealism are just labels that attempt to control the situation. Jesus taught radical generosity (Give to anyone who asks). I’m not saying you have to give everything you own away–including your clothes and walk around naked, but it doesn’t seem like he said to give in moderation. Jesus > Ecclesiastes. Everything in moderation is good advice presuming we don’t interpret “everything” too woodenly.
I don’t think “let the dead bury the dead” comes from a guy interested in the status quo and moderate followers. I don’t think we glean this attitude from Paul (to live is Christ and to die was gain) and many other places. My daily failures are a reminder to be thankful Jesus died on that Cross for me because “for man this is impossible.”
Vinnie
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Jesus used hyperbole.
Let us not confuse personal or human response with God’s expectations. Your behaviour and response will depend on your personality. If you consider Scripture as a whole, that is what is expected of us, maybe even part of God’s work within us. You must do what you feel you must do, it is not for me to judge or vice versa (Rom 14)
I am not a monk and never could be one. Perhaps, if the circumstances were different, you could be. We must tread the path that fits both our faith and our personality, If nothing else, God seems to want us as we are, not some false ideal whether derived from Scripture or not.
Richard
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He wasn’t “intensifying . . . laws”, He was pointing out that external compliance is meaningless without internal conformation. Those re-definitions apply not just to the particular commandments but to the entire Law – they illustrate a principle.
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I think that your possible point is a potential misunderstanding of the first verse. “…as I am with Christ…” Paul is not so much saying to be me, as he is saying to imitate the way that I am like Christ.
It helps to read the entire passage beyond that point, where Paul is writing about God and Christ, and not being “self descriptive” as you would expect if verse 1 was about himself.
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All nicely ambiguous isn’t it?
Mimētai mou ginesthe kathōs kagō Christou
Μιμηταί μου γίνεσθε, καθὼς κἀγὼ Χριστοῦ.
Imitators of me be as I also [am] of Christ
Actually it isn’t ambiguous.
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That’s your beholder’s share.
No, of course Paul is saying to imitate Him only in so far as He is imitating Christ. Why not Jesus directly? Because frankly, as Paul says it, this is more clear. There are too many foolish ways to imitate Jesus directly. No, Jesus is not asking 2 billion Christian to imitate like Him in the way of an actor or parrot so there are 2 billion people living like they are in 1st century Israel giving the same speeches and saying exactly the same thing in the same places. NO. Paul obviously did no such thing. But Paul tried to live according to the same ideals, and that is what is being asked of us.
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It’s Greek to me!
So why is it / isn’t it ambiguous?
Because the mere words are open to a spectrum of interpretation?
Yet we manage to communicate so much, often successfully, that is as intended.
What is/are your beholder’s share/s?
I always do the simplest. “Imitate like I do”.
[So how did he? Was his, alleged, imputed, slaver friendly, sexist, homophobia in imitation of Christ?]
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Key questions.
Cultural
Richard
Indeed. Which is key to our day to day
There has long been debate as to whether culture can overturn Scripture as highlighted by female priests, and same gender relationships. It would seem that, in general the church does not wish to challenge modern cultural changes. Whether this is just diplomatic or theology is more debatable.
Richard