I know you have this discussion in another thread, and I just want to add that miracles such as trampling the sea, controlling the weather, multiplying fishes and loaves were all done by the power of the Holy Spirit that was working in Jesus after His baptism. Dying for the world is of course only can be done by Jesus and that is totally on another level than just doing some miracles.
If we actually obeyed just Jesus’ two-part summation of the Law seriously - A) Love God B) Love your neighbor as yourself - we would be doing the impossible.
I’m familiar with Willard, Foster and others – Calvin Miller, Elizabeth Oldfield, Sharon Evans, etc. What they recommend might be helpful, but it’s not imitating Jesus.
In Jesus’ commands we have a summation of the human side of his values and life. These are actions and values that translate across cultures, not requiring us to take on specific formulas that were developed well after the first Christians had died off and that were in response to a particular cultural milieu.
I think that obeying Jesus’ commands is where our focus should be and that in doing that impossible task, we are doing just the kind of imitation of Christ that Christ had in mind for us.
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What, that we love one another?
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Harder yet, that we love the Other.
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Aye, he said more plainly there than had ever been said before. And we’ve been finding it hard ever since. Making every excuse not to.
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Well said. It is impossible to imitate Christ in the literal sense, as that would mean putting ourselves in a 2000 year old culture, and being out of touch with the reality of today. We are called instead to love as Christ would love, and live as Christ would live in our current culture and situation. Far too many want that which is of the past
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As such, Jesus did claim that we could emulate or even succeed Him. but only with the Holy Spirit. The power is His not ours, and so is the glory.
It strikes me that the thrust of this thread has been trying to justify a view from passages of Scripture rather than trying to understand the principles behind the Scripture. Yes, there is a difference between letter, and concept
Virtually every theologian, including Paul, has claimed perfection is impossible for us in this life, whether we have the help of the Spirit or not. The other refrain being that “Only Christ was perfect”.
I would have thought that this should temper any lofty goals of literally trying to be like Christ.
It might be debated as to whether the same behaviour and goals are the same for all? Maybe some are born to be Saints? As I have said elsewhere, I am satisfied to be Richard, and if God is dissatisfied with that, He appears to put up with it and let me do my little bit for the kingdom.
Richard
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Steve Winwood song “Higher Love “
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Literally trying to be the sinless Son of God is a fool’s errand. We who are saved by Jesus, try to emulate His model and obey his teachings as best we can. Exactly what Paul and pretty much everyone else teaches.
I have no issues with Christian ascetics. As you say, it looks like a “wonderful goal” in theory to me. Jesus said those who hear the word of God and obey it are his family. He expects us to imitate his obedience to the kingdom of God. There is no way around that. He doesn’t expect us to be him in every single way.
Whether or not we have to sell all we have and become itinerant preachers is another issue. People will always want to soften Jesus here but there is a lot of anti-rich material in his teachings.
I can tell you we we western consumers who love our gadgets will probably have to answer for our human rights violations since we are essentially supporting slave labor and sometimes harsh child labor to acquire them.
I think many of us Christians could very much use a large dose of asceticism. If we have running water and electricity, we are pretty rich compared to the majority of people who ever lived. A lot of people today lack access to clean drinking water.
A lot of us are going to be surprised with millstones when we get to the pearly gates. Peter will inform us, “Jesus said this is for you.” Not just the evil evangelicals who turn Christianity into a political tool or who don’t believe the earth is billions of years old. It’s across the board and there are going to be a lot do people “who cast out demons in Jesus’s name and who performed many miraculous signs that are still turned away. It’s a humbling thought.
For me, if Jesus’s teachings only provide comfort and they don’t knock us out of our comfort zone, we might just be the villains in the story.
My $0.02
Vinnie
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Yeah - for sure I wouldn’t be defending imitation of Christ as meaning that we need to be performing dramatic miracles and copying his exact actions. In fact - if we did resolve to do some of those things - we would not be faithfully taking his priorities for our own (what I take a valid form of ‘imitation’ to mean) but would be subscribing to non-Christlike priorities instead: like wowing the crowds with power, performance, etc. attracting a large following to ourselves. Those would be moves of anti-Christ, not the Christ who resisted all those temptations, both initially and explicitly in the desert as well as later in his life as he continued to turn his back on that sort of ‘messiahship’ that everybody else was so badly looking forward to.
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They aren’t hurting me. They are hurting the most vulnerable and poor in our nation, as they turn their backs on Christ’s teachings, His life, his posture toward the poor. All of us in this nation need prayer to find our way to Christ. Our mission field status is more recognizable now than maybe any other time in my lifetime anyway.
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Perhaps the dynamics of modern life have to be taken into consideration?
There is no doubt that if you give everything to the poor you end up the poor yourself and in need. Living in poverty by choice makes you a burden on the state. We have gifts and talents to be used and someone needs to have the money to use it as well. There is a point where reality Trumps idealism, whether it is Christian or Communist.
I think any attempt to second guess God is futile. At the heart is our intent and character that God sees whether we like it or not Humans can be fooled by religion and posturing, but God cannot.
Richard
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I agree with you wholeheartedly though “trying to be like Christ” seems to be the motto I have known for a long time without thinking critically whether Jesus or Paul commanded us to do that.
That hurts us all.
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That we love one another. [Easy for him to say! : ) ]
I think you can justify many levels of following or emulation, depending on which verses you want to hone in on. The knack is to take the broader view, which goes beyond dissecting verses.
Richard
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Did Paul love the other? His transformation in that direction was remarkable. Exemplary.
How about put down the Sword, you don’t need a Gun for Ye Have little faith, the US has millions of Firearms. Do unto others as You would have others do unto You, not do unto others as others do unto You. Forgive them for they were ordered to do what they do or were of Monkey see Monkey do influenced by others. Last of all watch out for being of “We the People” when We the People are all wrong, they didn’t Recognize God’s Son in the Flesh and let Barnabas go free(We like to be free to Sin all We want). Pontias Pilate washed his hands and let the Crowd Jury decide, and did nothing like Judge Ito.
Sorry, but those are parallel clauses and Paul means he is an imitator of Christ.
All too true.
Yet today I got to spend time with a guy who is clearly struggling with what it means to live worthy of the Gospel, despite how far from that he may be. It reminded me of Augustine’s rebuke to a fellow bishop who had told Augustine to get rid of all ‘sinners’ in his church: sinners is all the church has!
There’s no verb in Greek in the second clause. The sense is taken from the first clause, so yes, Paul means “as I also am an imitator of Christ”. It’s simple grammar.
You mean they’re actually returning to the ancient themes of the church? The Orthodox have been teaching that for nigh unto two millennia.
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And trying to pretend that society has caught up with the Bible.
Just a little more each day.
To reference one of the Fathers, “To be Christian is to be ascetic”, because we use the world, we do not live in/with/according to it.
There are two kinds of people in the church: those who are uncomfortable, and those who should be.