YEC and Yosemite

While YEC is fixated on arguing for a young earth, scientists have no interest in proving the earth to be old - the only discussion there is the precision and uncertainty to which the 4.54 billion year age can be determined. The real interest concerns the detailed history of the geology, climate, and ecology, over that time. In that regard, a great deal of independent data has established Milankovitch cycles as a driver of climate and, along with factors such as atmospheric composition, reflectivity, oceanic currents, volcanism, and land configuration, a trigger for ice ages. How would variation in solar intensity and distribution not affect climate?

Who what where? Quote mines are bad enough when they are dug out of accessible literature. Is this what you present to invite a less dismissive understanding?

As per the NASA reference @T_aquatus posted, scientists do understand the broad outlines of the conditions and feedbacks which brought about ice ages. The advance and retreat of ice ages correlate with isotope ratios in cave speleothems, ice cores, sea sediment cores.

There are many proxies for paleoclimate which present a unified picture, here is an introduction - Milankovitch Cycles, Paleoclimatic Change, and Hominin Evolution

the record of oxygen and hydrogen isotope ratios preserved in glacial ice, and oxygen isotope ratios in the shells of marine organisms such as foraminifera and radiolaria, provide a record of past sea levels, ice volume, seawater temperature and global atmospheric temperature. Air bubbles trapped in ice cores also provide a direct record of the past chemical composition of the atmosphere, particularly CO2. Carbon isotope ratios of shells in marine cores are equally valuable for estimates of water circulation and atmospheric CO2 concentrations. Eolian dust preserved in both marine sediment and ice cores has been correlated with climate and environmental conditions in the dust’s source region, specifically as a proxy for aridity. Continuous ice cores from Greenland record back to over 100,000 years ago , while those from Antarctica extend back to ~800,000 years ago.

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It is interesting that your question about a flat earth should come at this moment. Tomorrow morning is the monthly meeting of our Design Science Association, a young earth Creation organization, and Colonel Jeffrey Williams is speaking on The Ordered Work of Creation -
the Provision of Mathematics and Science

Dr. Williams retired in 2024 from NASA as an astronaut. He has spent more time in space, 534 days, than any other American. When asked about flat earth, he said he didn’t even bother to respond. And of course, he is an example of an accomplished non delusional scientist that firmly believes in a young earth.

What is the difference between the issue of a flat earth and the ice age? We are dealing with entirely different kinds of issues, and different kinds of science. We all live in the present, and we can investigate in the present and see the clear evidence of a spherical earth.

None of us were present during the last ice age. So in the present, we look at evidence from the past to try and understand what happened in the past. We can call this forensic science. So by necessity, the data must be interpreted. (And again, no, the data does not speak for itself. Scientists interpret the data using the lens of their worldview.)

I was not aware that YECs use the argument so often, but I will take your word for that.

Your use of the words “thrown out and” “refuse” is interesting. It is a recognized but not helpful tactic of using emotionally charged words in argumentation. To return the favor, I could also ask why you “refuse” to accept the post global flood theory of the ice age. I could also ask if you think that scientific theories should be thrown out if you refuse to accept them? Of course not. I fail to see how these question further a productive discussion.

I think you realize that YECs are hardly the only ones that have doubts about the Milankovitch theory. Several standard geologists and climatologists entertain similar doubts. They simply say they don’t really know how an ice age starts. If there are no good theories yet, that is a perfectly good and honest answer. You could read Oard’s articles on the subject to see why he and YEC and some mainstream scientists reject that theory.

Pretty simple. These would affect climate, but only minimally, not enough to start an ice age. Much more is needed

Well, all the factors mentioned in this portion of the quote agree with and are included in Oard’s post flood ice age hypothesis. What he adds is warm oceans, which addresses the “not enough time” to produce enough snow to rapidly (if over 500 years can be called rapidly) create thick ice caps.

Wrong from the get go. That is the YEC party line to move the conversation from evidence to dogma, and lend credibility with false equivalence. The data does agree with scientists; it is the data that informs. Nature tells us what it is, we do not get to tell nature what it should be.

Data is not neutral. Interpretations must follow the data. If igneous veins crosscut sedimentary rock, the sedimentary rock must have existed before. That is discriminating evidence which favors one as younger and the other as older. Uranium dating of the Yosemite granite zircons associates radiometric dating with the varied ages of magma incursions visible in El Capitan. That informs us of the geological history - there is no need of some strained “interpretation”. Data concerning ice ages, including carving out Yosemite granite, is incompatible with YEC interpretations.

Analysis of scientific data is not some attempt to project conclusions that provide comfort for literalists. As has been repeated explained by others on this forum, interpretations are constrained and guided by precision measurement, verifiable and plausible processes, and compatibility with the body of other data. Making stuff up without regard for these rules is not a scientific interpretation.

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This is another YEC tactic, to leverage any marginal uncertainty into an attack on well understood and substantiated knowledge.

Geologists and climatologists do not entertain doubts along the lines of YEC. Even if it were granted for the sake of discussion that a complete model for ice age initiation is not yet agreed upon, there is little dissent among scientists that ice ages correlate with Milankovich cycles over the past millions of years. That eliminates YEC narratives about the ice age.

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Did you ever ask yourself, “how does the warm ocean fail to warm the atmosphere, and if the atmosphere is warm, how do you get an ice age?

Did you ever consider that the heat capacity of the oceans is enormous, and in the process of cooling it must transfer heat to the atmosphere?

Have you considered that the isotopic ratios in planktonic sediments reflect specifically ocean temperature, and that data correlates with the ice ages, so there was not any warm ocean during the ice ages?

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I looked into this in detail some years ago, contacting both members of AiG and bristlecone pine experts, as well as doing my own research.

The result was that there is only one known example if a bristlecone pine having one extra growth ring, and that was on a tree rooted in an cave with a non-annual water supply. Further, bristlecones grow extremely slowly, growing only a few (3-5 IIRC) layers of cells per year, so they don’t even have the capacity to add extra rings.

The evidence AiG sent me about extra growth rings was about a different species of tree, not bristlecones, and the extra growth rings could be distinguished from annual ones simply by looking at them - there was no chance of a botanist confusing the two. So the idea that tree-ring experts may be counting non-annual rings doesn’t work. And that’s without considering correlation with historical weather records and carbon dating.

Do you have any evidence of extra growth rings in bristlecone pines? Rings that cannot be distinguished from annual ones?

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It wouldn’t. Given that the heat generated by proposed flood “models” would vaporize the Earth, whatever cooling mechanism kept that from happening wouldn’t result in retreating glaciers but growing ones.

My first thought is what evolution has to do with ice ages – the influence really goes the other way.
My second is that my high school freshman science class could have “identif[ied] potential mechanisms for the initiation of an ice age” – thirty years ago when I was student teaching science.

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Counting tree rings is easy. Children grasp the concept right away; this they can do. No degree from MIT required. You do not need algebra, let alone calculus, let alone differential equations. …Seven, eight, nine…just keep going. But somehow, this is not easy enough for young earth creationists, who get all confused when the count goes over 6,000. Being as the concept is so simple and accessible, defenders of a young earth must say something…anything…but what?

But indeed there is also much more to it, and scientists are far from just interested in the counting. By analyzing the isotopes incorporated into the wood as the tree grew, both radiometric and stable, by measuring the springwood and summerwood, looking for signatures of drought, rain, early frost, insect and fungal infestations, much can be determined of the climate and seasonal variation, as well as volcanic and solar activity. So dendrochronologists not only know how long the tree ring record extends, but much of what was going on at the time. For the past 14,000 years, notably absent was a global flood.

Yes, I am well aware of the nonsense put out by your favorite YEC evidence deflectors concerning dendrochronology. Long lived bristlecones are a challenge for the YEC timetable, being as ages to over 5,000 years have been recorded. But that is not the extent of problem, not by a long shot. There are dozens of ring chronologies all over the world from Germany to New Zealand, which reach far past 4500 years.

But that is not the extent of the problem for YEC. The tree ring chronology has been subject to massive C14 cross checking. In 1980 the first of these systematic operations was completed, then there was Intcal98, Intcal04, Intcal09, Intcal13, and Intcal20.

So here it is. The most recent tree ring - carbon 14 cross date goes back 13,900 years. Let there be no category error here; this is prior to any interpretation. This is fact. This is straight up data.

Let us consider the German Oak chronology against the YEC timeline. Assume Noah’s flood, say 2500 BC, putting aside actual Egyptian history for the moment. Water and dead stuff everywhere. But we cannot start growing forests in northern Europe right away, can we? There is the matter of all the ice ages wrapped up in one to contend with. It starts to snow, because the seas, which are warm from all that tectonic zipping about, are sending moisture to the cool air, which for some strange reason stays cool even though it blankets a warm ocean; but assuming this all makes sense in somebody’s head, the snow does not let up and after a few centuries all of Europe is under kilometers of solid ice. The sky eventually clears up. Then we wait for a brief few centuries, unrealistically short, for the glaciers to melt to the ground, so lets say 4000 years ago minimum we get our first German Oak seedlings. Given that we have 4000 years for about 14,000 rings, that works out to more than three rings per year. However, because rings are identifiable in confidently dated historical artifacts, we know that the single ring per year works well at least for the past millennium, so that actually leaves 3000 years for about 13,000 rings, which that means there would have to had been four rings per year to accommodate Noah’s flood. If that works for you, then I’m happy for you.

About those purported extra rings. They are rare. They are freaks. When they happen, they are typically distinguished and readily identified, as they do not have the characteristics of true annual rings. YEC has seized on this as a get out of jail free card, but have never offered evidence of systemic over count due to false rings. They claim that “conditions”, without specifying what conditions, caused massive extra rings, but even in their own fictitious world, forests must have grown long after the flood and after the subsequent ice age. So the rings look exactly as they would with the typical variability as are familiar with trees growing now. Furthermore, the more common ring irregularity is to miss a summer growth period altogether due to drought and cold weather. That could only mean that the tree record is even older, so ring irregularities are an argument against YEC.

You cannot discuss tree rings without dealing with carbon dating, because tree rings are made of carbon. Even if you fabricate some storyline of why physics does not apply to carbon dating, or why the timber which frames your house are full of bogus annual rings, there then remains the additional problem, why does carbon dating align with the same results of dendrochonology, whether that is 200 years, 2,000 years, or 12,000 years?

The YEC argument against tree rings bears a mark of desperation. Dendrochronology is science, but also the stuff of common life. It is such a simple and accessible counter to YEC. You see them in every cut end of a 2x4. You see trees grow every spring. I wonder that YEC adherents would rather deny their personal direct experience, in order to cling to some concocted nonsense to salvage a scheme at odds with reality. That is what they call a creationist lens.

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I don’t think I’m likely to become more respectful of lying or liars.

No, it doesn’t. We can track global temperatures using ice core data, and that goes back tens of thousands of years at the very least.

Not to my glaciology professors, it wasn’t.

In the 1970s it might have been possible to maintain that glaciers could cut granite more rapidly, but work done since then has changed that – the physics of glacial movement is much better understood, and thus the rates at which glaciers abrade stone.

That’s not how it works. When honest geologists see the evidence, they calculate what it means, it it points to an old Earth. When YEC advocates see the evidence, they do whatever is necessary to make it fit their preconceived (unbiblical) conclusions.

Except that this is pure fantasy – there is no evidence that the Grand Canyon strata were “soft unconsolidated sediments”, and in fact physics says that’s impossible – the canyon would end up many times wider and with different forms.

Which works if you ignore most of the physics of unconsolidated sediments, but not otherwise. The YEC claim is ad hoc conjecture that doesn’t have a model behind it.
In short, the YEC claim rests on ignoring whatever science doesn’t fit their little schemes for each explanation. It is dishonest.

But the biggest problem with YEC is that it requires reading the text of Genesis from a modern scientific worldview instead of the actual worldview of the writer(s). It is not just dishonest about the science, it is dishonest about the inspired text.

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It’s like saying that because in a game of Mastermind a player isn’t sure if a peg should be a red one or an orange one then the player doesn’t know what the colors are, as though when four colors and positions are known it is no different than if none are known.

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The models by Oard and other young-earth advocates are merely attempts to provide corroborative detail to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative, as Caiphas and Pooh-bah put it. The nonexistent model that I am talking about is the fundamental framework needed for any YEC science claim to be honest. What parts of the geological record are supposedly before versus during versus after the flood? Where does the water come from? How does it move? Every event recorded in the geologic record has to fit within the time allowed.

If the goal of creation science were to actually investigate the workings of creation and develop a credible model, it would have an overall framework that is being tested and corrected. But when the goal is making excuses to ignore the evidence, there’s no concern for coherence, no effort to refine and correct ideas except when it looks like people aren’t buying them.

Creation science advocates claim that the evidence favors their view and that both YEC and old earth are putting their view onto neutral data. The two contradict each other and neither are true. The geological data unambiguously support an ancient earth.

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As a specific example, claiming that the layers in the Grand Canyon were still unlithified after they were all in place is not an alternative interpretation of the data, but a denial of the data. Many layers have erosional features at the top that require the underlying layer to have been rock, such as karst. In parts of the Canyon there are eroded remnants of otherwise lost layers, reflecting the building of layer after layer of rock, punctuated by erosion. As already mentioned, if the layers were still soft, they would show sediment deformation features at the boundaries. The claim that bends in the layers show that they were still soft is doubly dishonest. Besides lying in claiming that there were no cracks in the rock associated with the bending, the claim that rock bending without cracking proves that the rock was soft is untrue. Whether rock bends or breaks depends on temperature, amount of force, and over how much time this was happening.

Similarly, the claims that the features of the Coconino Sandstone fit with flood deposition are not truthful. In that case, the features were accurately described but the claim that they better matched what a flood would produce is not honest. Even the results of the YEC experiment on how sediment held up to simulated winds were not correctly represented.

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The real question is “What is the difference between Flat Earth and YEC?”. Not much. Both are dogmatic beliefs. Both are impervious to evidence. Both conflict with basic observations of the universe.

We can see galaxies billions of light years away. Right now.

Yes, science interprets data. Just like how we interpret data to arrive at the conclusion the Earth is a sphere.

“YEC advocates are also aware of the research on Milankovitch cycles but find it unconvincing, inadequate to explain ice ages.”–cewoldt

Flat Earthers find the evidence for a spherical Earth to also be unconvincing and inadequate.

Because there is no evidence to support it, and mountains of evidence that contradicts it. Whether we have the exact mechanism that caused the ice ages can be contended, but there is tons of evidence demonstrating when the happened and how long they lasted. You aren’t interpreting this evidence. You are just throwing it out.

Yes, we know what that lens is.

“No apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field of study, including science, history, and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture obtained by historical-grammatical interpretation.”–Answers in Genesis, “Statement of Faith”

If the evidence disagrees with YEC, then the evidence is thrown out.

No, we shouldn’t. The evidence is not consistent with a young Earth. This is why YEC’s have had to dream up things like accelerated nuclear decay, not to mention their rejection of uniformitarianism whenever it leads to evidence they don’t like. These are admissions that the evidence does not support YEC. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have to dream up miracles to change the evidence.

The problem is consilience. We have more than just tree rings. We have multiple tree ring records from multiple continents, ice layers, speleothems, and lake varves. They all agree with one another. Radiometric dates agree with one another across completely independent decay chains. All of these agree with the fossil record. For example, multiple radiometric dating methods show a 65 million year old age for the rocks at the K/T boundary where we see a massive shift in fossils. How do you explain this?

Which is another example of why YEC is wrong.

Where did these floods produce limestone? Fine grained mudstones? Sandstones with cross cutting? Where did this flood produce anything close to the sediments we see in the Grand Canyon?

Do you really think geologists can’t tell the difference between tuff and mudstone?

Nor does the observation of rapid burial make the Earth young. Rapid burial could have happened billions of years ago. Nor does the observation of rapid burial indicate that the Earth was completely covered in water 4,000 years ago.

You also reject everything that is observed to take time, such as the decay of the isotopes used in dating.

Big regional floods do not evidence a recent global flood. Bretz’s theory won the day because of the evidence which you are not providing.

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Not to mention the agreement between European tree ring records and North American tree ring records. They agree with one another, and they also agree with 14C measurements in ice layers from both hemispheres, lake varves from multiple spots in the world, and speleothems from different places on the Earth. All of these records are created through different mechanisms, and they all agree with one another. The mission for YEC, if they accept it, is to explain how all of these different records can be wrong and still agree with one another.

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And rock bending without breaking results in known deformation patterns, including crystal deformation, for which minimal times necessary are known – and thus any deformation without breaking can be used to establish a minimum age of the formation. Most upthrust mountain ranges are hundreds of thousands of years old at a bare minimum.

For fun–

This is remembered from a notebook sketch of a formation seen on a volcanology course field trip. The lower deformed section was essentially metamorphic and showed bending without breaking. This was shaved off (presumably by glacial action) and then covered in a sheet of lava. Soil developed on top of the lava, with evidence of moderate fertility, followed by a layer of sand and mudstones, and it was capped off by another set of lava. In between the several upper layer types were thin layers of volcanic ejecta.

So the time scheme is obviously:

  • a long time during which strata were laid down
  • a period of very slow deformation
  • a period of glaciation
  • inundation by lava
  • build-up of substantial soil
  • change to a sand/dune environment
  • inundation by lava

The lower strata required many years to lay down, long enough for each layer to set enough to be distinct – call that 2k years, to be optimistic about how fast the layers could form. The layers are mostly metamorphosed, which indicates heat and pressure, and there is no breaking; between these two to go from flat to buckled took roughly at least a half million years.
Then the climate changed and an ice sheet formed, which became substantial enough that it flowed, grinding off the tops of the bulged-up layers – and no way to know how many layers are completely missing! At some point the ice sheet retreated, leaving a bare surface. The glaciation advance, march, and retreat require at the very most generous a few more thousand years – no way to actually tell without knowing what material was ground away.
The lower lava formation had several layers; assuming fairly short times between eruptions that layer took at least a thousand years – they weren’t right on top of each other; the cooling patterns show they each cooled on the surface.
Then a soil formation for another thousand, a sand/dune (sea? lake?) period, with intermittent falls of volcanic ejecta, totaling yet another thousand years.
And last of all, just under the present-day surface, a last set of lava formations for another thousand years.

So a minimum age here would be eight thousand years plus the half million for the metamorphic processes.
What’s significant is that it’s the layers that deformed without breaking that require the whole thing to be over half a million years old. That’s not assumed, it doesn’t require assumptions, it only requires measuring aspects of the rocks themselves and comparing that to lab data.

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Two of my favorite examples are distorted conglomerates and distorted fossils.

Tectonically distorted conglomerate:

Tectonically distorted fossils:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288306.1990.10425690

The YEC claim that rock has to be wet and pliable in order to bend is utterly false. Contrary to their claims, they are not interpreting the same evidence we are looking at.

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“But how do you know the rocks weren’t shaped that way to begin with? Were you there?”

“But how do you know that those aren’t just some kind of mutant? Were you there?”

BTW, the fossil article was an awesome read, though I skipped a bunch of the technical stuff.

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What does the Bible and History tell us about YEC’s biblical timeline?

Young Earth Creationists (YEC) claim the Earth is just 6,000–10,000 years old, cramming all biblical history—including Genesis 4—into a tight pre-metallurgical window. But the text itself undermines this. Genesis 4:22 names Tubal-cain a “forger of all implements of bronze and iron.” Iron smelting, the process to extract metal from ore, demands bloomery furnaces and temperatures around 1,500°C - technology unknown before 1200 BCE in the Near East. Archaeological evidence, like iron tools from Anatolia and the Levant, confirms this shift to the Iron Age’s start, around 1200–1100 BCE. The Yahwist author (of Genesis 4), writing circa 950–850 BCE, likely knew this craft and cast Tubal-cain as a pioneer.

Scripture backs this up. In 2 Samuel 12:31, David’s enemies toil with “iron picks and iron axes”—wrought iron, smelted and forged, not rare meteorite scraps. Isaiah 2:4 envisions “swords into plowshares,” a reshaping only workable iron allows. These texts assume a vibrant smelting culture, not a primitive one. YEC might argue Tubal-cain used meteoric iron, which needs no smelting, but its scarcity and brittleness can’t account for “all implements” or mass-use tools. Smelting fits the bill; meteoric iron doesn’t.

Placing Tubal-cain at 1200–1100 BCE aligns with history and scripture, but it shatters YEC’s timeline. Their early Genesis demands a pre-Bronze Age setting, 4000 BCE or earlier, when no one smelted anything. If Tubal-cain smelted iron around 1200 BCE, Genesis 4 can’t predate the Iron Age—upending YEC’s compressed history.

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One complication is that iron working spread rather gradually. The Bible records the Philistines maintaining a monopoly on the technology, for example. Another is possible older use of the word rendered iron to refer to dark rock such as basalt. Also, some translations put Tubal-Cain as the father of metalworkers, which doesn’t unambiguously claim that he himself worked in iron. As Abraham was in the 1900 to 1700 BC ballpark, Tubal-Cain at 1200 doesn’t fit well.

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Who was making that argument? My argument was two-fold:

  1. Uniformitarian old earth geologists (and that is what they were) refused to even look at Bretz’s evidence because what he was proposing was catastrophic and rapid. I realize that in the intervening decades, conventional geologists have realized that there were catastrophic processes in the past that we don’t see today.
  2. Uniformitarian geologists claimed that it took millions of years for the Columbia Gorge to form with the river slowly cutting it away. As it turns out, the Gorge was primarily formed in 48 hours with a lot of water.

No one is claiming that this is evidence of a worldwide flood, but it is evidence that present processes are not always the key to the past–not by a long shot.

And YEC dispute that there is evidence for multiple ice ages. You can either read YEC geologists, or reject their arguments without seeing them. Some of what was seen as evidence of an ice age is better explained by rock slides.