Witchcraft :Is it true?

Faith & Science Conversation
101

Avoiding the question much?

I repeat the question: Can believing in them be an open door or even an invitation for them to affect you?

None of what you have said addresses that question!

Furthermore, I have already explained how you can take the experience of others seriously without sharing their beliefs. This is if you believe as I do that there is an irreducibly subjective aspect of reality which is not independent of our desires and beliefs. And that goes for fairies and UFO abductions as much as demons, ghosts, and evil spirits. Thus I do not claim any more reality for the God and angels I believe in than the things other people believe in. I even share the theoretical basis for belief in the fallen angels which followed Lucifer because they were under his authority. But see no advantage in making them any more real than that, since I have had no experiences with them and don’t want any.

102

You could also argue from these two verses about that position. Assuming they heard about Christ and the bible and rejected it.

Acts 17:26-27 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Romans 9:14-24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

103

I beg to differ.

You appear to be taking a stance on reality that I cannot accept. Either something is real, or it is not. Belief is not enough. If it was then Religion itself is no more than the delusion Dawkins claims that it is.

Richard

104

Do you have a yes or no answer to the question? Or maybe an… “I don’t know.”
So which is it?

  1. Yes believing in them can be an open door or invitation for them to affect you.
  2. No believing in them cannot be an open door or invitation for them to affect you.
  3. I don’t know if believing in them can be an open door or invitation for them to affect you.

not enough for what?

For living your life? It most certainly is enough and that is easily demonstrable.

For getting other to accept it? It most certainly is not enough and that is demonstrable too.

Well I think it is all real, just not all the same for everyone. But I suppose that is what you really mean by this… either something is real and the same for everyone or it is not real. That is what most people believe and they insist that what they experience as real is all that is real and all the things that other people experience as real are just delusions. The obvious contradictions between these people leads to the unavoidable rational conclusion that all these people are delusional.

Notice that I am not saying that there is no objective reality which is the same for everyone. There certainly is. But if it is the same for everyone then you should be able to measure it and subject it to scientific inquiry. So I am afraid the most believable of the “ether something is real for everyone or it is not real at all” people are the naturalists, who attribute all the things which are not measurable to that which are not real and just in people’s heads.

So on the contrary the opposite is the case… If we must accept that ether something is real for everyone or it is not real at all, then the most reasonable conclusion is that Dawkins is right and all these people are deluded.

105

Im literally confused how my question ended up in a debate between reality? I agree with Richard on the witchcraft thing though.

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106

Well if you insist on this… either its real or it is not garbage and I have to choose whether its the people burning witches who are crazy or the people who say that witches don’t exist who are crazy then I am going with the former all the way and siding with those who say witches don’t exist.

But what I really say is that witchcraft is completely in the subjective aspect of reality and definitely nothing objective about it whatsoever. It is something quite different to different people if it is anything at all. And I support the law defending the ideals of a free society against anybody pushing their ideas about this on other people.

107

First of all i dont think anyone is pushing their ideas here. Second of all as a Christian the question comes whether you take witchcraft that the bible speaks of as another metaphor or for something else or even you take it literally. Dont forget that one historian (dont remember who) attributed Jesus miracles to witchcraft.

108

So you want the right to think that witchcraft is fantasy? You have it. But I have an equal right to reveal what I know. And I know it to be real. You do not have to believe me, but it is your funeral not mine.

Richard

109

Which just goes to show how subjective the whole idea of witchcraft really is.

That is practically unavoidable when you insist on… either it is real or it is not. Then how can you live your own life according to your beliefs without pushing your beliefs on other people?

The rights I intend to defend are those who have a different idea of witchcraft than you do as well as anybody you decide are witches. I don’t think it is a fantasy I just don’t think there is any objective reality to it – nothing measurable or demonstrable. I don’t equate that to fantasy even if you do. As far as I am concerned it is your own insistence on equating the subjective aspect of reality with fantasy (from your either it is real or it is not thinking) which equates your own beliefs with fantasy and makes very little difference between you and the naturalist or atheist, insisting that your experience of reality is the only reality there is.

110

I am not a witch finder general. If someone has a belief that is not impacting directly onto me then that is between them and God. It is not about looking for what is hidden, nor about casting some sort of death judgement onto people who do not believe as I do. It is about accepting that there are evil forces in existence. Rather than claiming them to be fantasy or figments of their own imagination.
You keep talking about reality as if it is subject to the individual’s perception? Just because my cousin sees grass as red (colour blind) does that change the actual colour of grass?
Because you do not see black magic does not mean that it does not exist. Nor does it mean that you cannot be affected by it. We cannot see radio waves, does that mean that radios are figment of our imagination?
Evil exists. That is all there is to it.

Richard

111

Darn tootin!

That is the reason I believe in hell. I see it on the Earth.

112

no way!

if we are un-certain, we cannot claim whatever certainty makes us feel better!

we must acknowledge the uncertainty, and admit “I don’t know, maybe”

And meanwhile, we should all agree “we don’t know, maybe”

un-certainty is not license to adopt whatever certainty “feels better”

please acknowledge?

I’m not demanding anyone admit to some “truth” I’ve never claimed because I admit I don’t know, for sure, one way or another…

but that un-certainty doesn’t allow anyone to feel certain – logic is not “I’m right until proven wrong”, this is not some sort of “innocent until proven guilty”

un-certainty = non-certainty != certainty until forced to concede something we don’t “want” to be true

un-certainty = “I don’t know, maybe”

113

doubt has no benefit, and neither would any false sense of certainty

I have never advocated anyone be certain in falsehood

but, prima facie, people do appear to gravitate towards psychological senses of “certainty”, one way or another

114

Apparently colours don’t actually exist. Some animals don’t see colours at all, others will see more than us and then there’s colour blindness. This would confirm @mitchellmckain theory.

But we can detect them with man made devices.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said but these are just terrible analogies.

God bless and Merry Christmas

115

No, I’m saying Christians are saying that non-Christians hold false beliefs.

116

I think you might have difficulty asserting that. Whether we can perceive them or not does not affect their existence, which is what I was trying to assert, so it does work.

Richard

117

But they might looking for you.

I remember in my early twenties I was walking home in the middle of the night when suddenly I heard a sound behind me. I turned around and I saw a man with gleaming eyes running at me with the intent to attack me. When he saw me face to face his eyes became even bigger filling with fear, he turned around and ran away.

I wasn’t a converted Christian at the time and didn’t realize what happened. When I became I realized and thanked the Lord for His protection.

118

I am pretty sure the theory of the ceased gifts of the Holy Spirit find its origin of the horrible misuse within several churches who profess them.

It isn’t new, Paul already warned against the effect of false use of the gifts.

1 Thess 5:20 - Do not despise prophecies.

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119

I think I am ready for that possibility with all the other possibilites my awareness encompasses without giving them any credit which I see no reason to grant them.

120

Incorrect. Just because there is no proof doesn’t change the demonstrable fact that people can have experiences which are conclusive for their own personal beliefs. The only thing that the lack of proof or objective evidence means is that there is no reasonable basis for an expectation that others should agree with you.