Not sure we can be so dogmatic about someone else’s experiences. Why question the facts or at least the perception of them.
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Because the belief and experience of God in the subjective aspect of reality is no less valid than your disbelief or the dogma of naturalists. I personally not only have this belief in a subjective aspect to reality but I also believe and experience God, even if do not hear voices from the sky or from donkeys.
yes, the claim is that the “Voices, Visions & Dreams” are all externally induced hallucinations.
If so, then numerous persons throughout human history have long been receiving (sporadically but consistently) meaningful, intelligible, cogent, articulate, audio & video messages sent to earth by powers in heaven.
If that was true, why would you be surprised? What makes you think earth is in any way isolated from heavenly influences? Does earth have some sort of Star Wars Planetary Deflector Shield I don’t know about?
And the proof would be, that those hallucinations have way more impact upon human history on earth than you could reasonably attribute to frustrated sub-conscious urges roiling to the surface of conscious awareness… but rather they, instead, really do betray a supra-human, supra-natural intelligence & influence.
For example, between Daniel & Revelation, Scripture attributes to heavenly power accurate & specific forecasts of terrestrial socio-political developments over the past 2600 years and counting (vaguely like Hari Seldon’s Psycho-History from Isaac Asimov’s Foundation sci-fi series). Insofar as no humans are currently (or have ever been) capable of generating such 3000-year political trend predictions, a supra-terrestrial, supra-human super-intelligence & influence (“heavenly eyes & hands on earth”) is implied.
Genesis 6:4 + 1 Enoch, “The Watcher” demons supposedly influenced human women in the cradle of human civilization circa 4000 BC imbuing them and their followers with supra-terrestrial supra-human “occult” (classified) knowledge imparted to them in order to subdue, control & dominate human civilizational development & emergence, as de facto “on world” agents of hostile heavenly powers.
cp. Alexander the Great’s mother Olympia claimed Zeus (“The Prince of Greece”) as her son’s heavenly father, and Julius Caesar likewise claimed divine descent from Venus.
I should modify this somewhat. If you believe these are dangerous or evil and you do them anyway then that is a different matter altogether. It is never wise to let others pressure you into doing anything you think is wrong or dangerous.
It is not about me doing anything it is about their existence and potency. To deny such is to deny the very presence of evil you claim to want to overthrow.
Also, if you deny their existence, you cannot help anyone who has got themselves trapped or hurt by them.
Richard
There is no such things as cursed objects. Just evil actions. I have tarot cards that I collected because their artist is one of my favorite artists. The decks are beautiful but the cards are not magic. They can’t tell the future. They can’t reveal secret truths. They are ambiguous and built around shotgun approach statists and flexible personal interpretations. Having them in your room as art wont do anything good or bad or draw any kind of attention spiritually and so on.
If in your heart you believe they are evil and use them to go against god you’re in sin though regardless if they can’t or can’t do anything beyond the physical.
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Bread and wine?
It is not the object. It s the Spirit that is using them.
Richard
And you are going to do something about them by believing in their existence and power?
Only if they, or their effects cross my path. I do not go looking for trouble. I am only saying that it is foolish to dismiss them as not existing.
Perhaps you do not believe that there is such a thing as Holy Water?
If there is no such thig as a curse, does that deny blessing also?
Ying / yang may sound Chinese but balance is a fact of nature.
For every force of Good there will be a corresponding force of evil. I believe in the forces for good so I accept the existence of forces of evil. But I also accept the Scripture that tells me not to put God to the test, which I interpret partly as not placing myself deliberately in peril or confronting Evil needlessly.
Richard
I believe in the power of desire and belief over the subjective aspect of reality. I just don’t think there any measurable difference between holy water and tap water, so I don’t think that holy water is going to do anything for someone who doesn’t believe in it.
Well, I’m an Agnostic Atheist. Would I be surprised that Tooth Fairies hallucinate messages? Yes I would, because I have no experience with them. However, someone who is used to receiving these messages would not (presumably) be surprised. I find the religion to be along the same lines. There are people who claim to speak with Jesus and hear him direct and advise them. How could I prove them wrong? I can’t, but I don’t think it’s my job to prove them wrong.
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Apples and oranges and also you don’t automatically benefit from all. Doubt.
Every mature adult knows that the tooth fairy is a hoax perpetrated on children. Everyone knows it’s just a joke. Conversely, mature, Cogent articulate intelligent educated adults, like Saint Paul. The pupil of Rabbi Gamaliel who was at the time, perhaps the most educated human being upon the entire planet. Claimed to receive meaningful intelligible Cogent articulate audio and video messages from the heavens.
Apples and oranges you cannot compare the one with the other. Children’s fables and the claim of receiving messages from the stars.
Maybe no one has proved such claims true but you have not disproved them false. So you do not automatically get to conclude that they are false. Nobody gets the benefit of any doubt doubt benefits, no one. Doubt has no benefits for anyone to profit from.
Well, I seem to be an Agnostic Theist. I don’t believe that objective knowledge of God’s existence is possible. But I know God exists as much as I know most things, for to live as if something is true is the only substantial meaning of “knowledge” itself.
No proof either way means no reasonable expectation that anyone should agree with either side. So he gets to conclude they are false just as much as you get to conclude they are true.
Nobody gets to make one side right by default. The burden of proof goes to anyone who expects others to agree. That is what “proof” means.
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That position would be backed by Scripture. Both Christ and Paul promoted faith and belief as primary factors for things happening be it healing, miracles or salvation itself. If you do not believe you need salvation then it becomes irrelevant.
Which leaves a rather paradoxical conundrum about God and spiritual powers. It has long been said that faith comes first, otherwise these things become proofs. And, despite some of the Gospel assertions God is not in the business of proving Himself. Scripture even makes this assertion about the Holy Spirit , that it is invisible and impotent for those who do not believe.
So, the same probably applies to powers of evil.
But, they exist, even if you, personally do not believe them. Whether they can affect you is more problematic for theorising.
Richard
Would you say Doubt has no benefit even for those who hold to false beliefs? Is Doubt beneficial to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists if it leads then to seek other religions, such as Christianity?
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Only if Christianity is the only valid belief… Do you really think God is that fickle?
Perhaps you would like to tell a Hindu whose family has been devout for generations that all of them are now damned and residing in Hell? I am not sure I want to worship a God who can’t see past culture and history or recognise true devotion and belief?
Richard
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Are you saying that Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists hold false beliefs?
Perhaps more important is whether the opposite is the case? Can believing in them be an open door or even an invitation for them to affect you?
There comes a point when theorising becomes circular. If something does exist then it can affect you. If something only exists if you believe in it then it does not exist at all. The problem is that there is “fallout”. That is people that are affected who were not directly involved in the “belief” part. It is at that point that things become critical.
You do not have to buy into evil to be affected by it. And, more importantly, you can only help people who do believe by accepting that there is something to believe in. Burying your head in the sand does no good.
You may never come into direct contact with these things, or you may manage to avoid these things, but to deny them completely is to bury your head in the sand, not to mention deny what Scripture teaches.(If that actually means anything to you, I cannot be certain from what I have seen here)
Richard