I agree potentiality must exist within actuality as nothing can be outside of an actuality. But within an actuality (I’m thinking of the singularity as God’s substance) for any other thing to be created, it would need space or an empty set in which to exist. It’s the only way to avoid pantheism. Or do you believe in pantheism? Im suggesting a self negation in God to allow for potential/ creation.
Thanks for your response. I admit that my style of discussion does not imitate Oxford-style debates. I come from a culture where such debates are not valued as much as they are in some other cultures, like UK or USA.
I do not feel a need to convince others that I am always correct. If someone eagerly disagrees, it is ok for me to let that person say the last word and think she/he has won the debate.
We are a diverse group of people, all participating with our talents and spices. I think that is something positive and gives a possibility to learn from others.
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That would only be true if you are defining actuality differently, especially in the phrase “an actuality”, equating it with everything which is actual.
I am using the word actuality (especially in the phrase “an actuality”) to mean anything which is actual – any one of many things where the potentiality of being has been given form. In this case there certainly can be something outside an actuality – a separate and different actuality.
You avoid pantheism by granting that God has created things outside of Himself as a true creator rather than merely a dreamer (which would make Him no greater than a child).
Ah! I would say it a bit differently that God is capable of limiting Himself for it is a very poor omnipotence which confines Him only to the choice of power and control – so that He is incapable of admirable things we are capable of, like taking risks, making sacrifices, and giving trust and privacy to others. I can only believe in and have regard for a God who has chosen love and freedom over power and control to create beings outside of Himself who have their own life, existence, and choices. I frankly think theology which limits God to absolute power is an enslavement of God to human theology and ultimately to a human obsession with power which cannot imagine ever choosing love and freedom over power and control. It is a theology best suited for the use of religion for the purpose of power over other people.
Knor (Kai),
It’s not about “imitating” Oxford-style debates, it’s about pursuing truth. When you say, “I do not feel the need to convince others I am always correct” - Ponder this, if there is one Truth, then anothers false perception of “truth" based on a lie, would indeed be, incorrect. Some people say, my truth is my truth and your truth is your truth, or my flavor is my flavor and your “spice” is your “spice”, but, if we are really and truly interested “in the possibility of learning from others” (as you say) then one must be open to the possibility of having perceptions based on falsehoods. In order to see that ones perception is based on a falsehood, one must present the facts and compare the facts in an evidence-based manner. You say, “If someone eagerly disagrees, it’s okay for me to let that person say the last word and think he/she has won the debate.” I wouldn’t call this a debate, per se. I used the word debate, and I also used the words “DJ” and even gave an example of playing b2b - does that mean that you or I are about to switch the record out and drop the next track? No. While this is my first time ever being part of a forum or even posting a thread anywhere, my question posed is a pursuit of the Truth by way of skillful presentation of facts by way of attempted teamwork. In such a discussion where the goal would be, as you say, to ultimately “learn from others” then it’s important that we try our best to bring our “A game” or maximal effort rather than subscribing to the widely pushed narrative of overplaying the value of participation for the sake of contributing something. In this context, what determines the value of the contribution to the discussion is the progress made in the quality of the conversation as it relates to the topic. This is more than, “you show me yours and I’ll show you mine.” This is, “I posted a question and you stepped in with some information, let’s sift it and progress in the direction of Truth based on our combined efforts regarding “talents” and “skill.” Teamwork, where refinement is a byproduct of structured discourse - How can that be possible if you potentially feel intimidated by the fact that the actual Truth presented by me is closer to the ultimate Truth vs the information you presented? If you are interested in sifting it out with me, I welcome intelligent discourse. However, if you are going to continuously attempt to passive-aggressively paint the picture that you are taking the high road (I.e. “I do not feel a need to convince others that I am always correct. If someone eagerly disagrees, it is ok for me to let that person say the last word and think she/he has won the debate) without so much as presenting a rebuttal or lifting your “sword” for an academic duel (because sometimes that’s just how the greatest findings are arrived to) then, I suppose this conversation has indeed reached its conclusion because I have shown you “mine”, and you have certainly showed me “yours”, and in turn, your back is turned to me as you walk away on that “high road” as a response. Regardless, I enjoyed this process.
It will take me time to go through it all. I only spend about 30 minutes a day now online and that includes time I spend in other social medias.
For me witchcraft/magic is all the same thing and it goes not matter if it’s used for evil or good purposes, or if it’s something like Peter laying hands on a crippled kid healing them instantly, if it’s Moses or the Egyptians causing seas to split or if it’s Jesus turning water into wine, or if it’s Zeus taking on the form of a bird or a fox shedding its skin and appearing to a man as some dancing woman. Or if it’s reading a chant from a book you found in a dream causing a sunken city to rise and cosmic entities made of tentacles and eyes escape. Prayers/spells are the same thing to me. Chanting to a god to bring about something in this world.
In the biblical discussions there is a debate over the word witchcraft and does it mean poison maker and if it’s the same as idol worship through rituals and sacrifices or the same as necromancy. While in their language I think the distinction exists, in the way we use it nowadays I don’t see that distinction. So for the purpose of the conversation I’ll just shove them all into the examples I used up above.
I do use personal experience and I do use verifiable sources of data to go through claims. If someone told me during a full moon of you go outside and jump you will float, and I go outside and do it and don’t float, and I ask hundreds of others online over a decade if they can float during full moons, and they all say no, then I’m going to assume the person telling me they can float actually cannot. If they tell me, well Americans can’t really do it, but people in the deep dark forest of Africa can, I’m going to just assume they are using a common horror trope. The strange and the unusually happening in a distant land. If they then say…. Well it’s here too, but can’t give me a name, a way to contact them, like on their actual fb with their family friends where we can publicly talk about their claims, then I will assume that person is also made up. When this same thing happens again and again, for over a decade I’m going to presume it’s just not true.
People say monks in the Himalayans can levitate. But no one else in the world can. People have went to record it, and no recording exists. But many people know a guy who knows a guy who went and saw it first hand…….
I think of Sant Jude’s often. With kids dying and suffering from cancer. Kids with a verifiable diagnosis and clear symptoms. Kids whose parents bring them before doctors, surrounded by nurses, all going through insurance. Those kids are dying, not just faking it. No Christian has or can walk in there, lay their fingers on the kid and say a short prayer and the kids jump up, fully restored and their hair grows back overnight. No Satanist can trade their soul for the healing of their kid there. No Indian shaman or Haitian voodoo priest can change anything either. All the rocks and crystals, all the circles of salt and even the prayers of millions won’t bring about some supernatural healing. No angel came down during WW2 and slayed a bunch of Nazis. Magically whirlwind of heavens or chariots of fire have never saved someone lost in the woods or helped them escape from a human trafficking trap.
Does that mean God is not helping? No. He may be. But there is definitely no evidence of it.
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In short comments, there is always a great possibility for misunderstandings, especially when using a language that is not your native language. I have noted that I am very skillful in causing misunderstandings - a talent but I hope that it is not the only one.
Truth is a very important goal for me, both as a believer and a (former) scientist. I have changed my opinions, interpretations and even denomination after I have understood that some of my interpretations do not stand critical inspection. I have learned also by reading comments on this forum, especially understanding why there are differing interpretations. I assume and hope that many who participate in these discussions have a similar open attitude towards learning more about the messages of biblical scriptures and truth.
On a fundamental level, the Christian teaching is that Truth is a person rather than knowledge. Our knowledge is never perfect. We should strive towards truth but also humbly acknowledge that our interpretations may be wrong.
I have noted that it is not always fruitful to try to convince a person that has burrowed deep within a particular interpretation or paradigm. It may be better to tell why I have a differing interpretation and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to lead the person towards a better understanding about truth. Of course, there is always the possibility that it is my interpretation that is not fully correct and the Holy Spirit will lead me towards a better understanding. Possibly even through these discussions.
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I appreciate your approach. I have just started Francis Collins latest book, and it is pretty compatable with what he expresses about concentric circles of truth, and the spiderweb of our belief system. A good read thus far.
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Awesome!
Prayers are not spells, and spells are not prayers. The main difference is through correspondence with God, one makes an inquiry, expression, or request and then relies on God to potentially provide the response or action as per His discretion, Proverbs 16:33, (The lot (gamble/dice) may be cast into the lap, but every decision is of the Lord). Prayer requires a component of submission to the will of God… “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done.”
I do agree that prayer and physical reality can have a cause-and-effect relationship. In terms of spells, that generally requires desiring a specific outcome and taking manipulative steps to attain the desired result. Such as, “I want a man to love me, so I will cast a love spell by sneaking some period blood into his pasta.” Disgusting example, but this is a commonly known tactic in many cultures across many racial distinctions. Ever heard the expression, “Don’t eat the red sauce?” Leviticus 10:26, “Ye shall not eat anything with the blood, ye shall not practice augury or witchcraft.” The Bible instructs us to pray, and the Bible also instructs against participation in witchcraft. Therefore, there is a clear distinction (of various kinds) in terms of witchcraft vs prayer. So, when you say, “Prayers/spells are the same thing to me” I must disagree based on clearly stated Biblical evidence and furthermore, even my personal experiences (and cross-reference that with the word of God). Some people pray to the one true God. Some people pray to the devil knowingly. Some people pray to the devil unknowingly by vibrating on the wavelength of willful and unrepentant sin. Like, so many people (like that lady I described at the tea house in my previous post) claim to believe in Jesus, yet their idea of Him totally contradicts things clearly stated in scripture. God does not readjust His shape to fit the notions of man’s perspective - it’s the other way around. There is an agenda to perpetuate confusion in this regard. I truly believe that if someone wants to know the Truth past the point of discomfort with a purifiable heart, God will certainly arrange matter/circumstances to guide a person to the appropriate choices in a progressive manner.
Now… based on your statements regarding verifiable claims, I hear you. I am feeling inclined to share one of my deeply personal and supernatural experiences I had as a means to develop my point in a way where you might try on the lens of my evidence-based (both Biblically and personally) perspective. To fully convey my point and the experience itself. This will be quite lengthy.
A while back when I was living in Upstate New York, I was pressured into participating in a Sadhguru Inner Engineering course. I was a somewhat atheist (probably not the best term to use) at the time hoping to God that God might actually be real. Once you get past the paywall of Sadhguru’s free YouTube videos, and purchase his content, things change… For instance, I saw a video of how Sadhguru stated that he was searching for one “crazy” individual to volunteer their body to host an “exalted being” and in return, he would send the individual to “Mahasamadhi.” Mahasamadhi: A term used to describe a yogi’s conscious exit from his body and return to the universal consciousness. This was entirely appealing to me at the time. I figured I would go and be one with what I hoped was God and my body would be donated to a good cause. I sent written correspondence to Sadhguru expressing my desire to voluntarily offer myself up while requesting information on what Mahasamadhi would be like. Well, that night I had a dream (Since as early as I can remember, I have been able to lucid dream, and dream with incredibly vivid detail) in which there was a knock on the apartment door and it flew open, standing there was what appeared to be Sadhguru holding a wooden staff and looking at me with this wild-eyed ravenous expression, wind blowing through his long garments, indoors. (Trust me, I know this sounds absurd). He approached me, gave me this black-looking piece of small stone (it looked kind similar to a small piece of shungite) and told me to eat it. I did. Then, I fell to the floor (still in the dream) and then stood up as he stared at me directly in my eyes, inches away from my face. Then, I (still dreaming) suddenly found myself laying face up in my bed, rolled to my side and fell off of the bed with a thud and I could feel the coldness of the wooden floor against my arm, looked onto the bed and saw my sleeping self, and “astral-walked” over to the spot where he was previously staring at me eye to eye, inches away from my face, then, I felt this electrical sensation in my stomach. There are a few more details I am leaving out for the sake of brevity. Then, I woke up. Even for me, this dream at the time was out of the ordinary and it occurred on the very same night that I sent over that written request, foolishly volunteering my body and soul. The sequence of events that occurred in waking life after that dream occurred are… out of this world.
I will also say that around the age of 5 years old, I did have an alien abduction (not a dream) (I don’t believe in aliens, those are fallen angels/demons - Revelation 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.”, Genesis 3:14, “And the Lord God said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field. Upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life” … and what did God create man from? Dust (Genesis 2:7-9). There are also plenty of accounts of people almost getting abducted, calling out the name of Jesus, and then the abduction abruptly coming to a halt. During this abduction, I experienced the very same painful electrical sensation (incredibly unique and distinct feeling) in my stomach (as described in the above dream). These demons see humans as battery sources and food. Ever heard of adrenechrome? Ever heard of the Red Shoe Club? Bible makes clear that historically, both flesh, and sex sacrifices have been offered to demons (1 Corinthians 10:20, Leviticus 17:7, etc.). There is also much archeological evidence to support these ceremonial practices - whose to say they ever stopped? Evil needs to disguise itself to be palatable and even crave-worthy to the vast majority. Life is like a game of chess, and most people don’t even realize they are being played, Hoesa 4:6, “My people perish for a lack of knowledge…” How do you keep a prisoner happy with his cage? You make the bars seem invisible. You overwhelm that prisoner with stimuli such as entertainment, lies, sexual sin, drama, etc. and you make it taste good. Then, you condition the vast majority of people to have a follower mindset and they in turn rely on the age-old philosophy of, “Everybody else is doing it!” Ephesians 6:12, “ For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” As I stated before, there is an agenda in place to perpetuate sin, confusion, and misinformation. Government-funded Hollyweird does a fairly decent job at perpetuating the agenda that makes vey real worldly occurrences categorize as fiction to the minds of the general consumer. As I stated before, there are levels to this game of life and while my vantage point is unique, the truth remains uniform and unchanged. God is the truth and His word is deeper than most people realize because most people rely on a preacher to digest the word for them and then regurgitate it out back to them in palatable baby chunks. Many churches have a business consumer mindset and want to retain their congregation by pleasing their ears and not pushing the envelope too hard. Many pastors are masons.
No, the journey to truth is one that must be traveled on with ones own two feet (Matthew 16:24). How you step and the meditations of your heart while you step along with the superseding will of God dictates the next experience.
As for the second half of you post, I will respond to that soon. I want to give it the respect it deserves.
Note: I am a normally functioning individual with a clean bill of mental health. I have many awards, was recently on the Dean’s List, and over 9 years of experience working in healthcare, research, etc. People are generally drawn to me when I go out and my exchanges with others are generally pleasant.
©
Amina
Kai (Knor),
I understand. Feel free to inbox me if you ever want to chat <3
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Do you hold to a Enochian demonology?
In a nutshell, the less time consuming response I have that gets right to the point is that I don’t agree with anything you said here basically. I think it’s a certain type of political fear mongering. I’m not a conservative. For a fact, I’m anti conservative. As far as vanity goes, and looking towards others to idolize, that’s not new. Cosmetics are thousands of years old. Ancient statues often were very chiseled. Somethings are even better. Gladiators fighting to the death were placed with athletes and wrestlers.
Just answering what you wrote. I would not try to discuss it to much since it runs the risk of not being left open,
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In the spirit of keeping things fun, here is my track selection for this post (an old fave):
Sevda - We Don’t Dance We Bring Drama
The video focuses on things like time being held, seasons, molecules, blood capillaries, quantum physics artistically expressed, etc. I remember the time I went out dancing and Rebekah was playing (her older sets were better, Asymmetric is a good release of hers) - To properly dance to this music requires a certain level of aggression. There was another person on the dance floor who seemed like a fish out of water, initially. How does one dance to such a high BPM? Jump, jump, jump, jump, jump… and totally eliminate every thought from your head. Leave no space between the sound hitting your body, and jump rhythmically. Suddenly, the fish out of water started to swim and while he was all the way across the room, and while we never officially met, or even danced within proximity, I would liken our corresponding dance moves to a cross between a boxing match and ballet. I would also liken a constructive conversation between two people to a night of dancing to some really good techno. I savor moments like these.
Now, in regard to your statement regarding healings, children, trafficking, etc. please see the attached photo of the following document I pieced together quite a while ago:
Note: The Bible vs in the beginning of the document is improperly referenced. I meant to cite is as, Leviticus 5:17, “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.”
The Sin column has a causal relationship to the Transgression column which also has a causal relationship to the Affliction column.
One may think, this is a bit extreme. Most people don’t do things like this. Ah, but most people are going to Hell. See, Matthew 7:13, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” So, it’s important to think deeply and outside of the box while referencing the Bible.
People think the West is so advanced with its technology and Apple snobs with their brain-frying ear pods in head (scientifically proven, can provide data). However, originally, man was not designed to require such a high degree of technology to navigate reality and communicate. Reminds me of 1 Samuel 8 (Israel Asks for A King). It baffles me that Israel requested a human king OVER God Himself (which was an option), lol. For many people, their technology is their King. Man cannot fathom how man was originally designed to function because they are used to relying on the tools promoted by the kingdom of darkness, like a toothless woman relies on a pair of dentures for a pearly white smile (and hopefully all the shades of white match up).
Again, as mentioned and cited in my prior posts there are plenty of examples of curses; including generational curses in the Bible. Adam and Eve is the first basic example that comes to mind, Genesis 3:16, “To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” Genesis 3:17, “To Adam He said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.” That’s right, man was not originally meant to need to exert labor to yield fruit, etc. I can give plenty of additional examples from the Bible of generational curses, including/regarding King David for his polygamous lifestyle, etc. Now, relate these facts back to the photographed chart and then visit the next paragraph.
Not everyone deserves healing and God is under no obligation to provide it. People feel far too entitled. Jesus Christ is a KING. The King of ALL Kings. (Put some “respek on His name” Lol - That viral Birdman clip came to mind and I felt inclined to mention it). The Bible makes clear that God does not hear everyone’s cry. You know what that means? He selectively answers prayers. Why? Because He can. He is after all, GOD. He is fair though, because He left mankind with a reference, the Bible) to figure it all out with, one just has to put in the work. In fact, if one “behaves,” because Christ died for us, they would even get the gift of the Holy Spirit to assist with navigation of the word. Feeling like God has still not done enough in that regard? If so, remember what He did on that cross. Ask yourself if there is a single person in your life who would go and do all that for you (other than God), including coming down from His throne to Earth to be persecuted before that painful death and feeling every bit of it, not only physically but also emotionally.
Some of the same people who are praying for a loyal husband have reveled in “opening wide” (technically, this connotation could be referring to a wide variety of things) for the married man of another. Those are the same women who complain when they are grey and single, or feel jealousy when they see happy couples. Some of the same people praying for healing cheated on their wives when they were sick and dying of cancer, dishonorably breaking the vows they made while looking her in the eye. Some children suffer for the sins of their parents because their parents revel in sin and that sin trickles down. There are examples in the Bible of Jesus cursing generations. Some children die early because since God is omnipresent, He knows that some of those same children would have grown up to be abusers and murders and in some instances, this ends up being a conflict in His greater plan that only He can see. Always remember, every murderer starts off as a child, etc. (see references from prior posts). Some of those children just die as an unfortunate byproduct of the lost spiritual battles of their parents. But, nothing ever just happens and physical reality is a reflection of spiritual reality. Trafficking? Well, Satan is the ruler of this world after all - Jesus said so Himself in John 14:30, “I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me.” Be mad at the demons you claim do not exist, not God. He gave man free will to choose. Man then reaches into His diaper and rubs poo poo stains all over the walls and gets mad at God because of the stink. Getting mad at the same God who came to Earth in the form of Christ, CHOSE to ride around on a donkey, wash people’s feet, and die on a cross with the last taste on His KINGLY lips of that vinegar-soaked rag that was thrown in his face as He hung there. I hope when I meet God, I get to cook a wonderful meal for Him and sit at His feet and watch him enjoy the taste of food prepared with Love. This is a prayer of mine, and the fact that is has the potential to become a reality one day makes me want to jump up and down!!
Maybe more important than focusing on decreasing human suffering, one needs to focus on the destination of one’s soul. Matthew 10:28, “Fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” This life is a test. Man tends to often times choose ignorance because of comfort. Well, Revelation 3:15-18, “I know what you do. I know that you are neither cold nor hot. And I wish that you were cold or hot. So, I will spit you out of my mouth, because you are only warm and not hot or cold.”
God could have assigned Hitler to be an abortion. However, since Man was created in God’s image and is eternal (either eternally alive or, eternally dead in Hell), man must be tested. Hitler and those that chose to follow him likely earned their spot in Hell and God has all the receipts on that, and thank God for that, because Hitler won’t contaminate Heaven or Second Earth. Those that died as a byproduct of Hitler… well, they aren’t really dead. Ultimately, everyone ends up in one of two places: Heaven or Hell. I do love the poem titled, “Do Not Stand On My Grave And Weep” by Mary Elizabeth Frye - it’s beautiful and relates to this topic.
Not everyone is equipped to play this game at the same level because a level too high for one’s spiritual rank runs the risk of shattering one’s perception of reality itself. God knows what everyone can handle and works accordingly. Some of the people who want to see the most, would be shattered the worst because they truly wouldn’t be able to handle it. Or perhaps, for whatever reason, God does not feel inclined to permit said occurrence in person’s life - the best way to figure it all out is to get into the word and rightly divide with the correct heart posture.
I hope that helps. Some of the questions you asked are the same questions I asked many years ago. I wish that someone had told me then what I am telling you now <3 But I understand that I needed to be processed and that I needed to experience certain things for the sake of my soul becoming saved and sharing my experiences with those that God leads me to.
Okay, your turn to dance.
©
Amina
I knew a male witch who would laugh at this definition. He said that witchcraft is the use of symbols to manipulate a person’s mind to achieve a desired end, and used as an illustration a ritual that had served to aid a person in freeing herself from the effects of childhood trauma. He noted that it can be used for unsavory purposes but that for a ritual to be effective the subject has to not just be willing but desirous of a positive outcome. His explanation of “spells” was that many people are unimaginative in coming up with useful rituals so many standard rituals have been written down – but that most of these have become useless because symbolism is culturally based.
Whether some forms of witchcraft involve unholy spirits and/or powers was something he was agnostic on, though he acknowledged that there are “black” practitioners who use very dark and cruel ritual, but said that even then the subjects had to want the outcome.
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St. Raymond,
You say you knew a “guy” who would “laugh” at the above-stated definition of witchcraft that I provided (i.e., Witchcraft is a form of manipulation for unholy purposes and comes in various forms.)
Um, okay. You then proceed to give me this “guys” (someone you either know, once knew, or perhaps even yourself, I truly don’t know) definition of witchcraft: You wrote, “He said that witchcraft is the use of symbols to manipulate a person’s mind to achieve a desired end, and used as an illustration a ritual that had served to aid a person in freeing herself from the effects of childhood trauma. He noted that it can be used for unsavory purposes but that for a ritual to be effective the subject has to not just be willing but desirous of a positive outcome. His explanation of “spells” was that many people are unimaginative in coming up with useful rituals so many standard rituals have been written down – but that most of these have become useless because symbolism is culturally based.” …That sounds like something a mason would say (Genesis 11:1-9).
Regarding what this friend/associate of yours stated with the oddly specific example you provided of: “and used as an illustration a ritual that had served to aid a person in freeing herself from the effects of childhood trauma. He noted that it can be used for unsavory purposes but that for a ritual to be effective the subject has to not just be willing but desirous of a positive outcome. His explanation of “spells” was that many people are unimaginative in coming up with useful rituals so many standard rituals have been written down”
I am curious, what is your (not some other guys) opinion? After all, you are the one who stepped into this discussion. I don’t have conversations with supposed third-party representatives. Let’s be more direct. Can’t dance with someone through someone else because if a toe gets stepped on, one can attempt to shift liability/accountability - It’s like playing a game of pretend.
Are you saying that desire for a desired outcome, and an action towards it = Witchcraft? Or wait, no, that was some “guys” opinion.
Well, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one. So, what is your opinion and how can you back it up with evidence-based/supporting facts with citations from a reliable text (like, perhaps the Bible, etc. considering the kind of Forum this is and this particular topic)? I think that would be a good start.
Are you capable/able to finesse your post a bit by taking the above steps? If so, I would be happy to potentially have a more constructive discourse with you.
Respectfully,
Amina
I guess your view on witchcraft and sorcery will reflect your view on the power (or not) of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who considers “miracles” with skepticism about their abilities to contradict apparent natural Law and order will look at sorcery with the same disbelief and scorn.
I have already seen the notions of tricks and illusions being stated as if that is the only answer.
The problem any true Christians will have with the occult or demons is that they tend to recognise and avoid us
I would concur.
The problem here is that disbelief is what “The Enemy” wants. He is quite happy for Christians to both ignore and disbelieve his powers. Spiritual warfare is laid out in Scripture (I should not have to cite it.) Whether we like it or not it both exists and concerns us. Having said that there are a lot of bogus or fanciful “covens” who would not know the Devil if he sat down beside them, or recognise any spirit let alone an evil one.
Trying to rationalise witchcraft is like trying to rationalise the Holy Spirit or God Himself. We just do not have the information or even the “eyes” to see it all
The traditional and pragmatic view is that if you are going to believe in a force for good then the logic is for there t be an opposing force of as near equal as God will allow. The notion that the Devil always wins because he cheats is romantic and good for stories but Scripture would seem to think otherwise.
Despite what I said earlier the general advice is to avoid rather than confront, especially if on your own.
My experiences are limited but from what I have seen there are powers that confound scientific explanation, both Christian and Non-Christian. burrowing your head under Natural law just exposes your rear.
Richard
So just to be clear. The reason why I don’t have proof of miracles is not because of sin. That’s just typical scapegoat responses. The reason why kids at st Jude is are not being magically healed is not because of sin either. It’s because no one on this planet is able to do it. If they can, they’ve chosen not to.
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SkovandOfMitaze (Mi),
I have a few questions. I am just seeking to understand your point of view:
- Do you think that sin causes distance between man and God?
I am weary of labels because people tend to add their own nuances. So:
In one of your prior posts, you stated, “So I’m a cessationist not just because I see no evidence of anyone with the power to perform miracles at their will by just laying their hands on someone but also because of what I read in the Bible. The reason why I think this is important, not merely just for the sake of the truth being known, but because many people reject God because they confuse the power of the Holy Spirit imparted through the laying on of the apostles hands for the miracles we see through prayer. They are both miracles but carried out in very different ways with very different purposes .
I believe that it is God’s will that determines healing (Proverbs 16:33), not man, so I can agree in that regard.
- Do you believe that spontaneous healing is possible if God willed for it to be so in modern times via the laying of hands as a conduit?
- Do you think that the Holy Spirit can heal a person today from within spontaneously without an intermediary person laying hands?
- Do you believe that demons possessed people during the time that Jesus walked the Earth?
- Do you think there could be a need for the modern-day individual to consider the possibility of spiritual warfare being a factor in modern-day life?
In a later post, you said: “When it comes to anything supernatural there just seems to be no solid evidence for it. Now I still believe in God despite that and I mostly lean towards fallen angels having existed at some point along with magic, but it’s because it’s just what I choose to believe despite there being nothing to actually back it up.”
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Based on the above paragraph/excerpt from your prior post, are you saying that you are okay with having a belief that is not rooted in anything in particular?
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Have you ever researched or casually browsed NDE (near-death experience) accounts and the similarities between experiences despite topographical location and socioeconomic status?
Thank you,
Amina
I wonder…
Would a miraculous healing fit with your beliefs?
Scripture is very clear about what it takes to heal or be healed spiritually / physically. Few of us are up to it, and those that are still have to convince the recipients and their guardians etc.
I think, to just dismiss such things is a little presumptuous.
Richard
Dr. David Bradnick wrote a book on “demons”. He argues that demons are actually non-personal emergent forces.
I don’t know whether there is a relationship between quantum physics and emergence theory. But it is a scientific explanation nonetheless. (Whether correct or not.)
From the book:
The author does not fully agree with Yong, but the main idea is the same. I myself suppose that some people are able to tap into this malevolent force through different means. Those activities could be called “witchcraft”.
I spent a lot of my around Pentecostals. Three different times because of my love for horror, for keeping pet snakes and spiders, and collecting rocks and crystals pastors have tried to say I was demonically possessed. I use to be obsessed with the supernatural. I was reading books like “ He came to set captives free” by Rebecca Brown as a young teen and was heavily fascinated with “Christian counseling and occultism “ by Koch. I’ve very familiar with the “demon under every rock” mentality and “healing under every palm” on the other side of the same coin.
Yes. I’ve mentioned NDE in here years ago. I don’t believe in them. I think it’s just dreams, hallucinations and so on. Chemical reactions in the brain.
As for the rest of cessationism i feel irs all answered on that other thread. If not, I can respond to that type of stuff this weekend perhaps. I’ve debated it for 15 years, and use to debate it almost daily for 3-4 years. Burned out on it. Made that thread to direct anyone towards it.
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