Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Noun. Synonyms of heaven:
The expanse of space that seems to be over the earth like a dome: firmament—usually used in plural. “the brightest star in the heavens”
a. often capitalized: the dwelling place of the Deity and the blessed dead hopes to go to Heaven when she dies
b. a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God
capitalized: god sense. Heaven help us.
a place or condition of utmost happiness, something that is very pleasant or enjoyable. Our week at the spa was sheer heaven.
Christian Science : a state of thought in which sin is absent and the harmony of divine Mind is manifest.
No just show your work and state your sources. It is obvious that 8,766 is your constant. So what comes next, hours in a day or days in a year? Why should they be related to the arbitrary human created hour? Fossil coral gives us an indication of the number of days in a year without reference to 8,766 hours.
And in your second chart, how did you decide which Days in a year to use? Why the big gap between Beginning and Day 1? Sounds like day-age creationism. Why did you use 461 twice? Why multiple the days in a year by 10E6?
With there being no dome in the sky, the heavens extend all the way down to the surface of the earth. The firmament, or surface of the earth, God also claimed as heaven (His dwelling place) by calling it Heaven. We being made from the earth are made His temple and he dwells within us. While the earth may not look like heaven, it is the battleground for heaven, and God has the victory.
I think you have a problem.
Robert Alter translates Genesis 1:6-10 this way:
“6 And God said, “Let there be a vault in the midst of the waters, and let it divide water from water. 7 And God made the vault and it divided the water beneath the vault from the water above the vault, and so it was. 8 And God called the vault Heavens, and it
was evening and it was morning, second day. 9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered in one place so that the dry land will appear,” and so it was. 10 And God called the dry land Earth and the gathering of waters He called Seas, and
God saw that it was good.”
Dry land separates “water” on any side of the dry land from the “water” on the opposite side of the land, and “the vault”/dome/firmament" separates the water “beneath the vault” from the water “above the vault”, according to Genesis 1:6, 7. 9, and 10.
No vault in the right place and you;ll end up with water above and all around the land. How do you plan on separating the waters above the land? If your birds aren’t fish, they’re all going to drown, no?
The firmament is not the surface of the Earth. No way, no how, no chance. Unless you’re once again going to tell us that the moon, sun and stars are on the ground, heaven is underfoot and birds can fly through rocks.
The three sources I provided are what I used for the number of hours in a day. That along with the 8,776 constant then gives us the days in a year.
The reference in 2 Peter compares 1 day (with the Lord) to 1,000 (literal) years and then 1,000 years (with the Lord) to 1 (Creation) day. Per the discussion with @St.Roymond this interpretation is grammatically correct.
We have days and years to work with, but days are a variable as we go back further in time. So, we need to figure out what a year with the Lord is before multiplying it by 1,000 to get the length of each creation day.
[1,000 (literal years)] x [number of days in a year (variable)] = 1 year with the Lord
Sources could have given days in a year and in hindsight I could have searched for that, but I searched for hours in a day instead. I previously did not know that there were fewer hours in a day millions of years ago, so when I found that out that became the starting point of my search. Number of hours in a year is our constant that ties it together.
I felt that the days in a year to use should be based on what they were at the beginning of each creation day, to define the length of each day. It was a little bit of iteration starting with 365 day per year. [365 x 1000 x 1000] takes us back to 365 million years ago, but at that time there were 411 days in a year (365 million being closer to 400 million than to 300 million). Second iteration [411 x 1000 x 1000] adjusts the beginning of Day 6 to 411 mya.
For Day 5 we start with 411 mya and add another 411 million, so first iteration gives us 822 mya for beginning of Day 5. There were 461 days in a year 822 million years ago, so second iteration adjusts start of Day 5 to 872 mya (411+461). Same approach all the way back to Day 1 where at the formation of the earth there were 4 hours in a day or 2,192 days in a year.
The Beginning is the Big Bang when all matter is made from nothing. Earth exists at the start of Day 1 with the Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters.
From the start of Day 4 to the start of Day 5 was a time when the number of days in a year were fairly constant. This is called the ‘Boring Billion’
[1,000 (literal years)] x [number of days in a year (variable)] = 1 year with the Lord
(1 year with the Lord) x (1,000) = 1 Creation Day
The duration of the Earth’s revolution around the Sun is unchanged - anything orbiting at our distance from the Sun will take the same amount of time.
The earth’s rotation on its axis is gradually slowing - the days (defined as a complete rotation of the earth) are slowly getting longer. The trend is not constant, though; there are myriad small-scale variations and some larger changes in the rate. For example, although the water and solid tides are consistently slowing down the spin, atmospheric tides can counteract the slowing under just the right conditions. Exactly when those conditions may have applied is not well-constrained, however.
Gemini is technically wrong. The period of Earth’s orbit has changed due to (1) tidal forces WRT the sun and (2) solar mass losses. Both of these are minor, though, on the order of (IIRC) one second per hundred thousand years (though it was more in the past since the sun loses mass much more slowely now).
It’s primarily load-bearing, they just learned to make it look nice as well. Here’s the more primitive version, from before people figured out that pointed arches can also work:
If you’re just going to make up your own story, why bother with pretending to be relying on Genesis? You’re chopping and hacking at the text and redefining words, and it bears little to no resemblance to the actual text.
The firmament is not the surface of the earth: stars are not attached to the earth and birds do not fly beneath it.
No, it isn’t, because you’re inventing two different days rather than the one that is written about in order to support your math scheme. Beside that, “with the Lord” has nothing to do with humans, and there is no mention of Creation.
And it’s not intended for specious calculations multiplying 1k x 1k, it’s just a metaphorical ration than can be reversed – 1:1k, 1k:1.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
The waters are above and below the firmament (7549. רָקִיעַ raqia). The early Earth is believed to be a ‘water world’ with shallow seas covering most of if not all of the land.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Waters under the heaven (8064.שָׁמַיִם shamayim) include all of the waters both above and below the firmament. All of these waters are gathered. The waters below the firmament (land) gather and push up so the dry land appears ( through volcanic/tectonic plate activity). At the same time the land is being pushed up, the waters above the firmament are being displaced and gather together to become seas.
This has been covered. If you insist that the firmament is a solid dome in the sky then you have the same problem with birds flying through something solid (the solid dome). But no, as @St.Roymond acknowledged, they fly across the face of the raqia:
They can fly across the face of the raqia whether the raqia is above or below them. The raqia is below the birds, sun, moon and stars.
This seems quite negligible and should not need to be brought into the equation. Its inflationary. If the length of years need to be adjusted, everything else should adjust with it including days, hours, minutes, etc. Just as the relation between a dollar and a dime should not change.
Not making anything up. I am refining and preserving the meaning of words. Most translations redefine the firmament as just sky, not solid at all. I am confirming the firmament as something solid. Are there different words in the Hebrew for birds and insects? Are there different words for swarming and flocking?
Its all within the context.
2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The day of the Lord is the 7th day of Creation. It is also the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ, where we reign with him (a day with the Lord). It begins from His return as a thief in the night, or in a blink of an eye.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The Millennium lasts for a creation day, the next 365 million years. We are about 2,000 years into it. 2,000 years out of a 365 million year Day translates to about 0.48 seconds. A blink of an eye is between 0.1 and 0.4 seconds, so we missed His return… we all did but that’s okay because He is here now dwelling within us. We are the body of Christ.
There is no point to saying the same thing in reverse order if there is no meaning behind it.
I do not insist on the firmament being a solid dome, so I have no problem. Even if I did, I still wouldn’t have a problem if birds flew below the firmament, rather than through it.
You, however, do have a problem. In fact, several problems:
@St.Roymond did not acknowledge that birds fly above the firmament - he said they fly across the firmament’s surface below it, between the firmament and the earth. You have misrepresented him.
You have once again ignored the stars and sun being fixed to the firmament. They are not fixed in, to or above the surface of the earth. They aren’t even fixed in relation to the surface of the earth.
You haven’t produced anything to support your claim that the firmament is below the birds, sun, moon and stars.
You have again ignored that we are not in ‘heaven’. It does not start at ground level.
You are misrepresenting what the bible says and misrepresenting what people here say. You are picking and twisting words you can use, and ignoring those you can’t. And, contrary to your claim, you are making things up.
And I don’t have a problem if birds flew above the firmament, rather than through it.
I did not say that he acknowledged that birds fly above the firmament. I said this:
You have misrepresented me.
If you do not say that the firmament has to be something solid, how can you say that the sun, moon and stars are fixed to? They are not fixed to it because they move across the face of it just like birds.
I have explained that the firmament is dividing water from water. Then the waters below (magma) gather, pushing up on the firmament, making the dry land appear which in turn displaces waters above the firmament, gathering them into seas. The dry land is the portion of the firmament that is open or exposed to the heaven (or sky). This is how continents and seas formed. God calls this now open firmament (or dry land), Earth (776. אֶרֶץ erets).
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Then we have birds flying above the Earth (776. אֶרֶץ erets):
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
The earth is the ‘open firmament’ exposed to, touching the heaven (8064. שָׁמַיִם shamayim). The birds fly above the earth.
Do you have anything to claim that the firmament is above birds, sun, moon and stars? What is below the firmament is water (subterranean waters, aquifers, and further below the deep, (magma, trapped water within rocks, liquid upper core and lower mantle)). The definition of water does not have to be just water. It can be something else in a liquid or semi-liquid state; semen is semi-liquid like magma:
מַיִם mayim - water, juice, urine, semen
Edit to add: And all these ‘birds’ we talk about are really insects.
Heaven (or sky) interfaces with the earth at ground level. It is all around us. Yes, we are in heaven, or the battleground of heaven. God has claimed the firmament as heaven by naming it Heaven. We have the victory in Him and trample Satan under our feet.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Yes – waters above the solid sky-dome raqia, and water beneath the earth, indeed below the underworld.
Irrelevant – that is not the waters that are being talked about.
No, it isn’t. The stars are embedded in the raqia,
No, you’re not, you’re changing the meanings of words and ignoring the context.
Most translations stick to what will be easily palatable to readers, at least those that are expected to sell. When they change raqia to sky they’re following a long tradition of changing meanings to make them comfortable to human philosophy – but they are at least treating the text with enough respect to not try redefining everything.
Pure fantasy – there’s no basis for that in the text.
That’s both bizarre and ridiculous. First, “twinkling of an eye” does not refer to a duration of the Lord’s return, it refers to how quickly we will be changed.
Sorry, but the Old Testament does it all the time, and second-Temple Hebrews did it as well – and Peter was a second-Temple Hebrew.
You need to treat the text with respect, not mangle it (and science) the way you are doing. I recommend you take some actual courses about OT thought and second-Temple Jewish thought, along with at least one about ANE cosmology, and so learn to pay attention to the text rather than shredding it to fit your imagination.
In my judgment this is an example of doctrines designed to tickle the ears of men, having nothing to do with the scriptures except snipping out bits and pieces to camouflage the scheme and make it look pious.
This is going into a book? Hope he’s rich enough to self-publish because no respectable publisher is likely to give it enough respect to do more than toss it in the recycling.
And here is where you go wrong. You are adding to the text and changing the meaning. Since Peter is talking about God not being slow, he is just saying time has no meaning where God is concerned so God can’t be “slow”. Peter isn’t speaking of the length of time of creation.
We know the age of the universe and the age of the earth so why not start there and work backwards? Or did you? And your argument still appears to be a lot of hand waving and application of the Goodyear Graphite Rule of Change.
They are not fixed to a solid dome that is in turn fixed to solid pillars at the ends of the earth. It says that they are for signs, seasons, days and years. Their movement and position in the sky is what determines those things.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
The magma formed in pockets is the gathering waters. It originates in the upper core/lower mantle which is all liquid/semi-liquid. Is there a separate Hebrew word for something in a liquid state that is not water?
Eretz is the name for raqia that appears above the waters. The position of the raqia has changed so its given a new name. God does this multiple times where He names things as He forms and changes them.
You have not replied to these:
My understanding is that the Hebrew language is more limited, so we need to refine the meaning to know what is really being talked about.
Well if its beneath the earth, thats not directly below the raqia now is it? Raqia is in the midst of the waters.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
It doesn’t divide waters from sky, earth and then waters.
Its pandering for a buck. That’s not respecting the text. That is changing the true meaning of the words. I am refining within the broader definition of the words.
Basis with clarification: …and a thousand years (millennium) as one (creation) day.
