Faith is a peculiar feature of the human mind. It resides in the imagination and comforts the soul. Religion often refers to ‘strong faith’, but how is the strength of faith felt? YEC believers have adopted a young earth as a tenet of their faith. The more they cling to that tenet in the face of opposition, the stronger they ‘feel’ their faith to be. Everyone may have to LIVE by the rules of nature, but we REST by the tenets of faith. All the debate about what tenets are ‘truth’ is mental gymnastics to occupy the active conscious mind. This forum provides the gymnasium. Allegory works best.
Such is as I have long suspected – where they have made “faith” into an ingredient of a magical spell. It is not a sort of faith I believe in. I think this deal they have made to exchange rationality for salvation (peace of mind) is a deal with a devil. It is not so different than convincing themselves that a human sacrifice will save them from an angry/hungry god – trading compassion/morality for wishful thinking. This may be a peculiar phenomenon found in human thought and behavior, but it is not a good one.
I believe real faith is something else. It is a choice which carries us over a gap of uncertainty which is a necessity even in rational thought. It is a determination to do what is right even when we cannot see any obvious benefit to ourselves. It is giving ourselves over to the love of another person or to an ideal, and like all choices it is part our becoming who we want to be.
Your definition of faith is not the biblical one.
As far as I am concerned there is nothing imaginary about my faith.
Alright, I am not YEC but that does not make my faith any more provable. God is still unprovable in terms of measured tangibility.
Yes YEC flies in the face of scientific proof, but science is no more infallible than any other perception. Science has been proved wrong before and scientists have made assertions that have been later disproved. YECs just work on the assumption that science is wrong on the matter of the age of the earth.
Faith also has to have a basis. I started with the Bible. I had to. The Bible is one of the few placs where God is not only accepted but promoted. But my faith goes beyond the Bible and does not rely on a view of it. YECs need the 7 day creation as part of their basis of faith.
I would accept that as a valid definition. Scripture says that it is believing beyond what we actually know. However, IMHO as faith becomes more certain we find other things that can confirm it (Or destroy it) Faith fails if something in reality contradicts what the faith asserts. Like the death of someone who has been prayed over. If faith thinks they should have been healed then the reality can, and does, destroy that faith.
On the same principle, a YEC cannot believe any proofs of Old Earth because it will kill their faith.
Richard
Yes, my definition is the more inclusive one. The point is that faith doesn’t require us to go against what we know – to ignore what the evidence tells us.
Thus faith can be rational, and even the scientist uses faith to go beyond what is proven. Faith accepts the fact that life requires us to make choices in the face of uncertainty. Not choosing is just as much a choice and it is not made the right choice by default.
But faith can also be irrational and even magical as in the examples I repudiated. Faith which ignores the evidence is blind. And while I can understand that some see value in this, I think it is only true in special circumstances, while in general it is not a good thing at all.
Indeed, but this points to the fact that the object of their faith was a false one – such as a belief that a devotion to God would keep their loved ones from harm or death. I am reminded of the faith of the Israelites that God would protect them even as Jeremiah preached this was not the case. It is the same kind of deal with a devil as this magical faith of YEC – to ignore evidence, even revelation from God that what you have placed your faith in just isn’t true.
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The problem is that I and many others can testify to it actually happening.
Richard
Yes and no. The quote is affirming, not doubting, that miracles happen. But we should apply appropriate doubt to claims about miracles. The Law warned the Israelites not to be impressed by miracles if they were invoked in support of going after other gods, for example. There are plenty of fake miracles. “Psychic surgeons” claim to be able to pull a tumor or other bad stuff out of you by putting their hands on you and then showing you something looking like raw meat in their hand. James Randi did what looked just the same, but claimed that he did it by trickery. Also, the cancer patients who paid lots of money to the “psychic surgeons” still died of cancer. That’s a fake miracle.
To the limited extent that we understand how nature works under extreme conditions, it does seem as though ultimate creation requires some sort of miraculous action. And certainly God has worked miracles in the course of human history. But creation science claims require God to be working numerous miracles to make it look like the earth and the kinds of living things were created over a huge amount of time, using the patterns that we call natural laws. And He has to be working numerous miracles to counteract the destructive effects of the things that creation science claimed happened, such as speeding up radioactive decay. Belief that God can work through miracles must not be turned into the error of believing that He isn’t working through everything else as well.
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I sometimes wonder if there’s a bit of virtue signalling going on with some YECs. There are some people who give me the impression that they know full well that the earth is old, but they just espouse young earthism anyway because they think that by being prepared to look “odd” or “unintellectual,” that somehow makes them more spiritual than everyone else.
Something about making your phylacteries wide and the tassels on your garments long comes to mind…
No. You may see an act of God keeping your loved ones from harm or death. But you cannot see your devotion to God making Him do it.
This is the error of those persecuting Jeremiah. They also saw the record of the many times God protected Israel. But this didn’t mean what they thought it meant. And likewise what you have seen may not mean what some think it means either. And so they lose their faith when something happens. Their faith was misplaced. A faith in God is not misplaced. But the Bible clearly testifies a faith that God will do what you expect can be a faith misplaced.
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You can wonder that about any and everyone. People strongly believe things that others strongly reject. I mean, there is a ton of diversity on this forum for sure.
I agree that faith is expressed when it motivates our choices. Especially when it comes to loving others and accepting forgiveness. I may have actually gotten my description of faith backwards. It may be better said that it resides in the soul and comforts the imagination. A YEC could find it difficult to imagine an old earth, so they find comfort in YEC. Religion is generally designed to provide comfort regarding the unknown or something difficult to comprehend, and what we may otherwise imagine about it.
I never said that.
I just said that miracles do happen. And people are healed. The problem comes when you assume it is going to happen and it doesn’t.
We cannot second guess God or tell if or when He is going to act. Sometimes we might not even see that He has acted because it does not align with what we are looking for or expecting. All I am saying is that faith in God should not rely on our seeing Him act, especially in specific circumstances. The act then becomes a Test of God. And scripture says that God does not like that.
If I am praying to God I bear in mind that I should be praying for HIs kingdom not mine, and therefore it might not be what He wants. IOW God can say No, or wait, or any of a number of answers, rather than a plain Yes. My faith does not rely on a specific answer, or even being able to discern what the answer was/is. It is only natural to thank God if we think He has done something specifically for us, but many Christians have a tendency to assign everything to God making miracles either commonplace or not miraculous in the sense most understand them.
Richard
The multiple provincial miracles of timing and placing that accomplished Maggie’s rescue were not commonplace(!), but neither did they break any natural laws.
A case in point
Richard
What is a case in point, Maggie’s rescue? There was nothing miraculous about it? Is that really what you mean?
No that is not what I mean. it is what you are saynig. You are saying that God was already controlling it so there was no need for prayer or anything else. I cannot see how you can petition God at all. with your belief system
Richard
Can I use the first petition in The Lord’s Prayer? Yeah, I think so. (You do remember what it is, right?) Is God honored when his sovereignty is proclaimed and his name revered? Yeah, I think so.
Try some of these on and see if they fit: 100 Bible Verses about Gods Providence.
That is not the form of petition I am talking about and I am pretty sure you know it.
If God is controlling everything then it is pointless to try and change His mind, especially if He already knows what is best for us and is implementing it.
We have already been here,
The Bible assigns all things under God’s control because it is charting the nurturing of His people. And it is His people who are writing the scriptures. So unless you are Jewish, the precepts of divine guidance in the Bible do not apply.
Sorry and all that. You are, of course, at liberty to think otherwise, but don’t expect me to agree with you just because it says what you think scripture says.
Richard
Any petition is about desire and how can you not know it.
I am not alone. (I did not make that list.)
Do you know who George Müller is?
I never said you were. Without difficulty, I found at least four webb sites claiming what you do about chance. That doe not make you right.
No and why should I?
There are several people here talked about like some sort of guru or high priest as if what they say makes any difference at all.
Having support or a spokesperson does not insure that what is said has any more credence.
Richard