Why God Is Not In Time

Faith & Science Conversation
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  • What? Like a clock that is not aware or not yet aware of its moving hands and ticking?
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Clocks don’t move their hands :grin:

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  • Clocks don’t have hands nor feet to move, and yet they run, but never go anywhere by their own power, and all the while are not aware of what is going on inside them or around them.
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I’ll just post this here too:

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I’m sorry. But I cannot indulge personal testimony of God acting in people’s lives. I’ve seen too many horrors that a little providence could have easily thwarted.

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That’s pretty funny, considering all of the personal testimony indulged in in the Bible, and in particular the NT.

That’s the typical atheist’s excuse for not believing in God. Theodicy is a whole 'nuther discussion.

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I know. I just don’t think God is here right now. Not like He used to be. The Nobleman has gone away to a far off land to become king. And His servants are left to their own devices. The Parable of the Ten Minas is my view on Christ’s ascension and eventual return. I believe we’re on our own, the Comforter has been sent, yes, but not to perform miracles or save us from traffic collisions. No, the Comforter keeps our hopes in Christ’s promises strong.

I see it all the time. Cancer patients have some of the strongest faith in Christ’s promise… They still die from the disease. But they’re more hopeful than you or I at our best, somehow. I don’t understand it.

I imagine you will vehemently oppose this view though :slight_smile: But I cannot be swayed otherwise.

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I’m not ready to rejoice just yet. Christ has not returned.

I used to go to Church with my wife, she’d still have me go but I cannot endorse the place. Anyway, they were singing, terribly as is often the case, a song. The lyrics consisted of “oh, death, where is your sting?” And the over all message they were giving off was that death no longer bothered them, it had no sting anymore. It was based on 1 Corinthians 15:55.

However, a Month later the lead Pastor’s dad died and they held a large, mournful dedication to the man. The Pastor was deeply saddened and affected by his Dad’s death, as is the norm. I thought then how quickly they had jumped the gun. Where is death’s sting, sir? Well, is it not in your heart right now?

They got carried away and started celebrating too early.

The point is, the world is still a terrible, wicked place. And death lurks around every corner. I cannot support the idea of modern miracles when things like Children’s Hospitals exist. One day, I believe they will no longer be necessary. But until then, no, I will not rejoice. The struggle is too real to me. For every happy, singing face I see in a church building, I see more tears and suffering outside. Funnily enough, isn’t it those in the building that should be out there with them? Yet they’re not… They’re happy in their little bubble of bliss. I find them to be… Not my cup of tea.

I will grant that my stubborness and opposition to following the current has been a boon for my faith. I rarely fall into falseness. I am rarely fooled by deceitful hearts. And I quest and question for the truth. I’ve found if you open your heart too much, you’ll let anything in.

I’d rather be true to who I am before God. Than to fake it till I make it just to please Him. Would He even want to have a relationship with a person like that?

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Sure, but I can suspect you grieve the Holy Spirit, maybe by not doing all you ought or could (not that I do)?

ETA:

Maybe by paying more attention to who he is and what he has done, and less to yourself? And appreciating what he has done in others’ lives too? Maggie’s is a good example!

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If I thought it would make a real difference, I’d burn myself out to do it.

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My ETA posted after I saw your last. Paying attention to Magge’s factual account should be refreshing to a Christian.

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I came to faith, not through emotion, but intellectual pursuit. There was no religious influence in my conversion from agnostic to theist. I studied enough arguments to believe. I found some truth in many denominations, but ultimately threw them all out. I’ve not had any emotional experience lead me anywhere but trouble. I suspect that is where you and I differ.

I am not interested in appeals to emotion. The stories of those who found God when they were at rock bottom. Good for them. I hope it is true and not them reading into life what they want to see.

There was a story I heard, about a guy who got really drunk at a party. In the morning he was supposed to travel home with some friends in the back of their car. But he was too hung over to get up and go that early, telling them he’ll find another way home later.

The car he was supposed to be in got rear-ended by a truck. He would have died.

Was it God? Or was it beer that saved his life?

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What was God doing 400 Trillion years ago?

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How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

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ETA: A believist can acknowledge Christian doctrines as true or admirable and affirm them, but what matters is the heart and the heart’s desires, not the intellect alone.

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  • Assume legitimate Christian faith on the part of other people, unless they identify otherwise. The purpose of discussions here is not to judge the legitimacy or efficacy of anyone’s faith or lack of faith.
    (See: FAQ - The BioLogos Forum)
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  • Time in physics is operationally defined as “what a clock reads”.[6][13][14]
  • The universe is filled with “clocks”, literally and metaphorically. In fact, the universe is a clock. Ergo, anyone who thinks “God is not in Time” appears to believe that God is not “in” the universe, or may be manifesting schizophasia, or both.
  • The fact that there are so many clocks, literally and metaphorically, in the universe, and the fact that physics denies Absolute Time appears to be the reason that there is no “Absolute Now” in the universe, which may go a long way toward explaining why the universe is “Godless”.
  • P.S.
    • Neo-Lorentzian Relativity and the Beginning of the Universe, Daniel Linford (September 20, 2021). Abstract:
      • Many physicists have thought that absolute time became otiose with the introduction of Special Relativity. William Lane Craig disagrees. Craig argues that although relativity is empirically adequate within a domain of application, relativity is literally false and should be supplanted by a Neo-Lorentzian alternative that allows for absolute time. Meanwhile, Craig and co-author James Sinclair have argued that physical cosmology supports the conclusion that physical reality began to exist at a finite time in the past. However, on their view, the beginning of physical reality requires the objective passage of absolute time, so that the beginning of physical reality stands or falls with Craig’s Neo-Lorentzian metaphysics. Here, I raise doubts about whether, given Craig’s NeoLorentzian metaphysics, physical cosmology could adequately support a beginning of physical reality within the finite past. Craig and Sinclair’s conception of the beginning of the universe requires a past boundary to the universe. A past boundary to the universe cannot be directly observed and so must be inferred from the
        observed matter-energy distribution in conjunction with auxilary hypotheses drawn from a substantive physical theory. Craig’s brand of Neo-lorentzianism has not been sufficiently well specified so as to infer either that there is a past boundary or that the boundary is located in the finite past. Consequently, Neo Lorentzianism implicitly introduces a form of skepticism that removes the ability that we might have otherwise had to infer a beginning of the universe. Furthermore, in analyzing traditional big bang models, I develop criteria that Neo-Lorentzians should deploy in thinking about the direction and duration of time in cosmological models generally. For my last task, I apply the same criteria to bounce cosmologies and show that Craig and Sinclair have been wrong to interpret bounce cosmologies as including a beginning of physical reality.
      • Forthcoming in the European Journal for Philosophy of Science.
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Edited. We need to examine ourselves and

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Regardless, God is still not constrained by time.