I wasn’t raised Christian but by extreme liberals.
And then I went and explored Christianity on my own disdaining any guidance from a church.
So, I fly my own path on that issue to say there is not one way or many ways, but no way. Too much of Christianity (like Calvinism and the articles of remonstrance) is built on entitlement. My answer to that is Jesus’ words “With men this is impossible.” The gospel of Jesus and Paul is salvation by the grace of God and not the Gnostic gospel of salvation by knowledge (of dogma). And faith is primarily an acceptance of this to do (and believe) what is right for its own sake (and that is how I incorporate the words of James).
Ending up as orthodox as I am is quite a surprise: Trinitarian, not universalist, historical Genesis… Though there are definitely areas where I am not even close to following the crowd: open theist, views on atonement more like Eastern Orthodox, hell as something we do to ourselves…
I was brought up as a son of the manse. My father was a Methodist minister. Faith and God were second nature. At 15 I decided that it must be a lie. I told God that He did not exist (as only a precocious child can) Within 24 hours I decided that I needed God to exist. (Not really a good start on true faith) But the more I lived with that notion and the more I looked and learned the more my faith has grown. I was not going to follow my father! I was not going to be a preacher!
I am not ordained, not for want of trying but I was first too young and then too old. I have been a Lay preacher for 40 years. I am not really orthodox although I tow the party line when leading worship in the name of the denomination in question.
My problem is compassion. The hard-line Christian exclusivity does not wash. And neither, as you know, does any sort of human endemic evil. The usual form is Original sin, but yours is equally abhorrent to me.
As I have matured my thrust has been to preach a Gospel that helps people rather than condemns or frightens them. I do not think that I water it down as such, but I tend to gloss over the nasty bits. I preach repentance, and preach against bigotry or asking for forgiveness when there is no repentance, and they would do the same again. If you are a Christian there are standards, but if you are not then I do not ram it down people’s throats. I have even encouraged someone on this forum to explore their ideas of a corporate consciousness as opposed to a cental God.
I have enjoyed getting to know you and apologise if my trying to fathom you out has offended you.
World Christianity, the majority of which accepts evolution?
The Roman Catholic Church?
Or are you taking about the majority in one small portion of the world?
The heart of which is John 14:6 right?
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
My response is… well duh… Jesus and the Father are one. There is no one without the other. This does not say… no way to God except by Christianity or no way to heaven except by chanting the name of Jesus or no salvation without accepting approved doctrines.
exclusivity??? I don’t have any. God is not the property of any religion.
Yes… you are a little incoherently irrational on that subject.
repentance of what? This is the incoherent part. Why should people repent if they have no sin?
oh I see… you go around judging people… saying to one you must repent… but not you or you… but definitely you…
BUT… if your point is that we should not teach people they have sin as a matter of doctrine and therefore must repent. WELL… I agree! Unless people realize and understand their own sin then repentance is pointless! Having little kids accept by rote that they have sin and have them go through the words and motion of repentance is a bit of a distortion… kinda sickening actually.
I do not judge. If a person knows they have sinned and they repent, fair enough. I will not convict anyone who does not sin.
So do I.
Agreed
Absolutely not. I see no reason for it. There is no need to condemn. People are rational and understanding enough to evaluate their own actions. And they do not need an excuse for them other than that they did it themselves.
And, like I said, I do not inflict a need for forgiveness. If someone comes to Christ it is because they themselves choose it, rather than some sort of imposed guilt trip.
My way tends not to get choked, or whither but produces fruit 100 or 10,000 fold
(I can misquote Scripture with the best of 'em)
Do not worry about me, I can hold my own with the most fundamentalist, you do not come close.
Richard
PS I sort of missed this
Perhaps there is hope for you yet
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
42
What it says on the tin. To bind.
It has something for everyone:
The Five Moral Foundations
…The Individualizing cluster of Care and Fairness, and the group-focused Binding cluster of Loyalty, Authority and Sanctity.[7][18] The empirical evidence favoring this grouping comes from patterns of associations between the moral foundations observed with the Moral Foundations Questionnaire.
…
A sixth foundation, liberty (opposite of oppression )… theorized… in response to the need to differentiate between proportionality fairness and the objections… from conservatives and libertarians (United States usage) to coercion by a dominating power or person.[6] Haidt noted that the latter group’s moral matrix relies almost entirely on the liberty foundation. The evolutionary roots of the liberty foundation are theorized to lie in “hypervigilance of egalitarian hunter–gatherers for any sign of alpha male behavior, including boasting.”[19]
You see perhaps one of the important differences between us, is that you were in the ministry and I was not. I am more of a theoretician in both science and theology. My focus is not so much on the practicalities of what we should preach but more about what is the big picture and how do all the pieces fit together. And so as sickening as the above practice of turning children into programmed Christian robots may be, it is ultimately incoherent to see a need for repentance without an acknowledgement of the reality of sin.
And the point of evil being within is human responsibility in a world filled with so many horrendous things done by human beings. What is the alternative, that demons are controlling people? Is that what you believe? That demons are making people go on killing sprees? Is it demons making bullies mistreat other children? Is it demons pushing drugs on the corner? Is it demons building the weapons of mass destruction? Is it demons making people abuse children and rape women? OR… are you saying that none of these things are evil?
The demon stuff makes for cool movies like “Constantine” but I cannot say I actually believe that.
Actually I am “happy” to accept the existence of demons as a representative of evil, just as I accept angels as a representative of good (not that I have seen either) but let’s not get sidetracked.
The alternative is simple. People make choices. They use whatever mechanisms they prefer to make them. Some are self-seeking, some are morally neutral and some are consciously self-motivated and some have a notion of fairness and justice. Sometimes justice can be sinful. Sometimes circumstances make a sinless choice impossible, some times it is just a mistake or miscalculation/misunderstanding. There are many reasons to sin, it does not have to be in-built or demon motivated. And in a lifetime of three score years and ten (+?) the chances of making a mistake are very short indeed. Such is life. It stinks. So there is no need to add anything else on top. There is no need for endemic sin. Life will take care of it.
It’s not in-built or demon motivated but it is habitual. Yes we make choices but choices create habits and good habits can open us up to greater possibilities with more choices, while bad habits can close us down to a very narrow life/awareness with few choices left. It is the self-destructive life-narrowing nature of some things which make them sin and not the dogma of some religion forbidding it. Nor is it the mistakes we make which is sin either. Mistakes are a natural part of the learning process. If we learn from them, then it is good, and some burden of guilt serves little purpose.
Why are you being so stubborn? Have I not given a satisfactory answer?
Does it really matter why people sin? What is wrong with the notion of someone not needing salvation from Christ? Did He not imply that with His comments about only the sick needing a doctor?
There are enough sinners to go round. No need to overfill the pot.
You keep stubbornly demonizing me for no good reason and I keep stubbornly refuting it.
I have been making considerable effort to understand where you are coming from. But to get a reciprocal understanding makes me feel like I am pulling teeth.
Satisfactory reason for what??? For what you keep saying about me? No.
Not a topic of this conversation as far as I can tell.
This also hasn’t been mentioned… certainly not by me…
Yeah because he was SO approving of those who thought they were righteous. LOL
No need to go nuts when someone observes that there is a pot with something in it.
I can attest to that. No standards for everyone? I do, but they’re much broader and less specific than what Christians sign off on. Still I do appreciate your respect your respectful manner … at least toward those you don’t feel entitled to hold to scripture.
Yeah… That is another thing about my definition of sin as self-destructive habits. It’s more objective, not like disobeying some arbitrary command of an invisible deity. You say such and such is a sin? Well my definition implies asking the question, how is that self-destructive and habitual? And is there any objective evidence for that claim?
I believe in the bible but I do not assume that others hold it in the same manner, especially if they are not Christian in any shape or form. However, I believe there are certain standards that can be expected to apply to all, but you do not need to bash the bible to find them.
Don’t get me wrong, I can bible bash with the best of 'em, but I tend to leave that to the pulpit where the listeners tend to expect it Even so my approach tends to be to tease out what is being said rather than emphatically declaring my beliefs as Gospel.
Well said. Perhaps you realize I don’t at all look down on placing the emphasis on the Bible so many do. I think it is like accepting certain forms for one’s expression in poetry. If everyone remains humble and positive in this I imagine it can be a way to internalize a common vocabulary for the finer points of values and meaning. The challenge for this or any other approach is the part about remaining humble and positive. For me I’ve simply found other ways and am not willing to start over.
Nevertheless the authority of the Bible is part of the definition of Christian religion. I certainly do not think that it should ever take precedence over the objective evidence even for those who do choose to follow this religion. And understanding what the Bible means is an open question for us Christians to wrangle over.
I don’t see Christianity as the only route to God. I see it as the only way for me, and I see it as a comparatively “easy” route inasmuch as there are fewer demands in terms of behaviour, ritual, and restrictions. (unless you want them, but that is another discussion). Maybe you do not need the moral guidance of Scripture? And maybe, just maybe, God likes you as you are without all the vanity of “I am saved!”.
What is the purpose of religion? Maybe here is is better to ask
What is not the purpose of religion? And that is to tie you down, or compel you to follow. Not to lay down a burden of guilt or judgement. Maybe, if you do not feel the need for support, or guidance, then there is n need to look for it? Perhaps when it comes to the crunch, all will be revealed and it is then that you can make the discernment as to whether to accept the forgiveness of Christ or not. The proverbial last chance saloon? Maybe. I am not God.
It seems to me like a mixture of both. It encourages certain behaviors, typically positive ones such as kindness and selflessness, but it also has beliefs about the supernatural and divine with it.
I’ve seen many people quick to assume that religion is meant for mind control and that it was created by the government or authorities to control your lives, etc.
But for me, it’s more of just beliefs. And maybe a lifestyle too since you’re living in the way of those beliefs. A government enforcing them doesn’t make it all of a sudden mind controlling, you got bad people of every group.
And no Cindy, a few churches taking your money and then using it for other stuff doesn’t define the whole belief. Crazy right? (Not a real person but It’s sorta mocking what people will say about the church).
