I do not judge. If a person knows they have sinned and they repent, fair enough. I will not convict anyone who does not sin.
So do I.
Agreed
Absolutely not. I see no reason for it. There is no need to condemn. People are rational and understanding enough to evaluate their own actions. And they do not need an excuse for them other than that they did it themselves.
And, like I said, I do not inflict a need for forgiveness. If someone comes to Christ it is because they themselves choose it, rather than some sort of imposed guilt trip.
My way tends not to get choked, or whither but produces fruit 100 or 10,000 fold
(I can misquote Scripture with the best of 'em)
Do not worry about me, I can hold my own with the most fundamentalist, you do not come close.
Richard
PS I sort of missed this
Perhaps there is hope for you yet
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
42
What it says on the tin. To bind.
It has something for everyone:
The Five Moral Foundations
…The Individualizing cluster of Care and Fairness, and the group-focused Binding cluster of Loyalty, Authority and Sanctity.[7][18] The empirical evidence favoring this grouping comes from patterns of associations between the moral foundations observed with the Moral Foundations Questionnaire.
…
A sixth foundation, liberty (opposite of oppression )… theorized… in response to the need to differentiate between proportionality fairness and the objections… from conservatives and libertarians (United States usage) to coercion by a dominating power or person.[6] Haidt noted that the latter group’s moral matrix relies almost entirely on the liberty foundation. The evolutionary roots of the liberty foundation are theorized to lie in “hypervigilance of egalitarian hunter–gatherers for any sign of alpha male behavior, including boasting.”[19]
You see perhaps one of the important differences between us, is that you were in the ministry and I was not. I am more of a theoretician in both science and theology. My focus is not so much on the practicalities of what we should preach but more about what is the big picture and how do all the pieces fit together. And so as sickening as the above practice of turning children into programmed Christian robots may be, it is ultimately incoherent to see a need for repentance without an acknowledgement of the reality of sin.
And the point of evil being within is human responsibility in a world filled with so many horrendous things done by human beings. What is the alternative, that demons are controlling people? Is that what you believe? That demons are making people go on killing sprees? Is it demons making bullies mistreat other children? Is it demons pushing drugs on the corner? Is it demons building the weapons of mass destruction? Is it demons making people abuse children and rape women? OR… are you saying that none of these things are evil?
The demon stuff makes for cool movies like “Constantine” but I cannot say I actually believe that.
Actually I am “happy” to accept the existence of demons as a representative of evil, just as I accept angels as a representative of good (not that I have seen either) but let’s not get sidetracked.
The alternative is simple. People make choices. They use whatever mechanisms they prefer to make them. Some are self-seeking, some are morally neutral and some are consciously self-motivated and some have a notion of fairness and justice. Sometimes justice can be sinful. Sometimes circumstances make a sinless choice impossible, some times it is just a mistake or miscalculation/misunderstanding. There are many reasons to sin, it does not have to be in-built or demon motivated. And in a lifetime of three score years and ten (+?) the chances of making a mistake are very short indeed. Such is life. It stinks. So there is no need to add anything else on top. There is no need for endemic sin. Life will take care of it.
It’s not in-built or demon motivated but it is habitual. Yes we make choices but choices create habits and good habits can open us up to greater possibilities with more choices, while bad habits can close us down to a very narrow life/awareness with few choices left. It is the self-destructive life-narrowing nature of some things which make them sin and not the dogma of some religion forbidding it. Nor is it the mistakes we make which is sin either. Mistakes are a natural part of the learning process. If we learn from them, then it is good, and some burden of guilt serves little purpose.
Why are you being so stubborn? Have I not given a satisfactory answer?
Does it really matter why people sin? What is wrong with the notion of someone not needing salvation from Christ? Did He not imply that with His comments about only the sick needing a doctor?
There are enough sinners to go round. No need to overfill the pot.
You keep stubbornly demonizing me for no good reason and I keep stubbornly refuting it.
I have been making considerable effort to understand where you are coming from. But to get a reciprocal understanding makes me feel like I am pulling teeth.
Satisfactory reason for what??? For what you keep saying about me? No.
Not a topic of this conversation as far as I can tell.
This also hasn’t been mentioned… certainly not by me…
Yeah because he was SO approving of those who thought they were righteous. LOL
No need to go nuts when someone observes that there is a pot with something in it.
I can attest to that. No standards for everyone? I do, but they’re much broader and less specific than what Christians sign off on. Still I do appreciate your respect your respectful manner … at least toward those you don’t feel entitled to hold to scripture.
Yeah… That is another thing about my definition of sin as self-destructive habits. It’s more objective, not like disobeying some arbitrary command of an invisible deity. You say such and such is a sin? Well my definition implies asking the question, how is that self-destructive and habitual? And is there any objective evidence for that claim?
I believe in the bible but I do not assume that others hold it in the same manner, especially if they are not Christian in any shape or form. However, I believe there are certain standards that can be expected to apply to all, but you do not need to bash the bible to find them.
Don’t get me wrong, I can bible bash with the best of 'em, but I tend to leave that to the pulpit where the listeners tend to expect it Even so my approach tends to be to tease out what is being said rather than emphatically declaring my beliefs as Gospel.
Well said. Perhaps you realize I don’t at all look down on placing the emphasis on the Bible so many do. I think it is like accepting certain forms for one’s expression in poetry. If everyone remains humble and positive in this I imagine it can be a way to internalize a common vocabulary for the finer points of values and meaning. The challenge for this or any other approach is the part about remaining humble and positive. For me I’ve simply found other ways and am not willing to start over.
Nevertheless the authority of the Bible is part of the definition of Christian religion. I certainly do not think that it should ever take precedence over the objective evidence even for those who do choose to follow this religion. And understanding what the Bible means is an open question for us Christians to wrangle over.
I don’t see Christianity as the only route to God. I see it as the only way for me, and I see it as a comparatively “easy” route inasmuch as there are fewer demands in terms of behaviour, ritual, and restrictions. (unless you want them, but that is another discussion). Maybe you do not need the moral guidance of Scripture? And maybe, just maybe, God likes you as you are without all the vanity of “I am saved!”.
What is the purpose of religion? Maybe here is is better to ask
What is not the purpose of religion? And that is to tie you down, or compel you to follow. Not to lay down a burden of guilt or judgement. Maybe, if you do not feel the need for support, or guidance, then there is n need to look for it? Perhaps when it comes to the crunch, all will be revealed and it is then that you can make the discernment as to whether to accept the forgiveness of Christ or not. The proverbial last chance saloon? Maybe. I am not God.
It seems to me like a mixture of both. It encourages certain behaviors, typically positive ones such as kindness and selflessness, but it also has beliefs about the supernatural and divine with it.
I’ve seen many people quick to assume that religion is meant for mind control and that it was created by the government or authorities to control your lives, etc.
But for me, it’s more of just beliefs. And maybe a lifestyle too since you’re living in the way of those beliefs. A government enforcing them doesn’t make it all of a sudden mind controlling, you got bad people of every group.
And no Cindy, a few churches taking your money and then using it for other stuff doesn’t define the whole belief. Crazy right? (Not a real person but It’s sorta mocking what people will say about the church).
