discussion moved here
then there is this on reditâŚ
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/v6j1vp/in_an_interview_with_dick_cavett_richard_burton/
The actual interview (which i havenât finished watching yet). The interview notes the coal seam in question at about the 4 minute mark in the video.
How interestingâŚno one comments in the hope that this will go away. So typical on these forums and indicative of a real dilemma being presented without opposing answers. I guess this is a win for YEC here.
Or perhaps itâs just that we have other things to do with our time, such as tax returns for example?
It looks like the comments on the Reddit thread that you linked adequately address the geological points raised in the video and I suspect that no-one else has anything further to add to them. If Iâve understood them correctly, the videoâs description of the coal seams is not accurate (they arenât even continuous across the eastern US, let alone as far as Europe, and on top of that the video confuses coal seams with faults when the two are completely distinct geological features), and even if it were, continental drift over geological timescales is already an adequate explanation for what we see.
On the contrary, even if Noahâs Flood were global it would not account for these features. For that, you need catastrophic plate tectonics, which is (a) science fiction, and (b) not in the Bible.
4 Likes
Itâs hardly typical of Biologos. Most or all posts receive comments. But just because you post something doesnt mean others are required to comment. For me, Im not a geologist so am unqualified to comment. Given Biologos is primarily about evolution I would suspect most others who contribute are similarly unqualified.
are we talking about the Mid Atlantic Ridgeâby which continents are moving away from each other??
or the Carboniferous period (sp) Carboniferous is the period during which both terrestrial animal and land plant life was well established.[10] Stegocephalia (four-limbed vertebrates including true tetrapods), whose forerunners (tetrapodomorphs) had evolved from lobe-finned fish during the preceding Devonian period,
Evidence for this process comes from the magnetic properties of the erupted basalt. The Earthâs magnetic field has been shown to âflipâ occasionally so that the North and South magnetic poles reverse with time. Basalt contains minute magnetic minerals that take on the direction of the Earthâs magnetic field at the time of eruption.
Image courtesy of the Naked Science Society
Magnetic stripes on the ocean floor
These polarity reversals are therefore recorded in the rocks forming at the Mid Atlantic Ridge every time the Earthâs magnetism changes from a normal field (as it is today) to a reversed field (as it was about 0.78 million years ago). When these variations in the magnetic rocks are mapped on the ocean bed they are seen to line up in a series of alternating âmagnetic stripesâ, rather like barcodes.
The significance of the magnetic stripes was only revealed when their ages were discovered from dating magnetic reversals in volcanic rocks accessible on land. The dates revealed that the Atlantic Ocean was opening by seafloor spreading from the Mid Atlantic Ridge at a rate of about 0.02 metres per year.
This means that North America and Europe are moving away from each other at about the rate it takes for your fingernails to grow.
1 Like
and yet Britanica says the followingâŚ
The productive coal deposits occur in the marine strata and consist largely of soft, bituminous coal; anthracite coals, however, occur in South Wales. Though local variation in the coal seams occurs, great uniformity is evident on a regional scale, and some coal beds can be identified throughout Great Britain and even on the European continent.
Most anthracite and bituminous coals occur within the 299- to 359.2-million-year-old strata of the Carboniferous Period, the so-called first coal age.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/coal-mining/Coal-deposits
Now the thing is, given coal is mostly a sedimentary deposit, and its formed around the same time even by evolutionary timelinesâŚthe idea that its impossible to have been a result of Noahs flood is problematic.
it seems to me that the divergence here is timeâŚnot how or where. So when a creationist manages to scientifically align the timeline of coal deposits, with historical bible writings, as well as other evidences, such as the inconceivably rapid appearance of most divergence of life in the Cambrian explosionâŚ
The Cambrian Explosion is often posed as a challenge for evolution because the sudden burst of change in the fossil record appears to be inconsistent with the more typical gradual pace of evolutionary change https://biologos.org/common-questions/does-the-cambrian-explosion-pose-a-challenge-to-evolution
however, even biologoos makes a fundamental error in its own article on the subjectâŚa stuff up in not only science, but also logicâŚa stuff up of falling into the trap of playing scaling games in support of evolutionâŚthe notion that if something is small enough it can be explained away as unimportantâŚ
The forms that appeared in the Cambrian Explosion were more primitive than these later groups,
https://biologos.org/common-questions/does-the-cambrian-explosion-pose-a-challenge-to-evolution
The truth of the matter is, life in the Early Cambrian was anything but primitiveâŚ
Invertebrates are animals without spines, while vertebrates have a spine. Invertebrates are sometimes (mistakenly) thought of as primitive because of their lack of developed organs.https://butterflies.org/invertebrates-and-vertebrates
and that is the stupid part about the explaining away argument. We now know that at the cellular level, even invertebrates are extremely complex. I donât know how many of you have watched youtube videos about starfish and sea cucumbers for example, but the evolutionary capabilities of these life forms at the molecular level is incredibly complexâŚthey are definitely not primitive at that levelâŚand this presents a major challenge for naturalism and its a boon for irreducible complexity.
So these things above, they are actually evidence that its more consistent to be a creationist than Theistic evolutionist, because even atheism recognises that TEism must dramatically manipulate its philosophical writings to make their world view work. At least the creationist doesnt need to do thisâŚwe stay true to our writings and the scienceâŚthey both align.
Another point worth noting is that this thread has been posted in the Education Forum, so it wonât be listed on the home page and wonât attract the same amount of attention from people who are qualified to address it and interested in doing so. Perhaps the @moderators may want to weigh in on this but if it does warrant serious discussion it should probably be moved to the main Faith & Science Conversation.
Or then again it might just be that people are getting tired of addressing the same old PRATTs over and over again so if something has already been addressed repeatedly it is more likely to be ignored.
5 Likes
Looks like it was posted here by accident so will work on moving it to the main forum. Thanks for pointing it out as I do not look at this sub-forum very much, as it is really just for school type discussions.
1 Like
I think that got it moved. Sort of glitchy to do so on my iPad. Just a reminder, the education forum is not for general discussion, but is reserved more for educational resources for school teachers and home school. Please read the opening description of the education forum for guidelines. I see that there have been a number of posts there which should have not been posted there, so may need closer monitoring.
2 Likes
I was having a good day till you mentioned those!
Iâve sometimes thought that if all the tax returns ever sent in were put together in a landfill they would turn into a very nice seam of coal rather quickly.
1 Like
Bingo.
Right â there are seams in Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio, and more, but they do not form one contiguous deposit.
I got a good chuckle out of that.
Yes. The northern Pennsylvania coal fields were originally part of the same deposit that form some of the Welsh coal fields. Thatâs not just guessing; analysis of both chemistry and stratigraphy show them to be identical âtwinsâ.
Somewhat depressingly, a quick web search for âPennsylvania Wales coal seamâ turns up the above in the top five results â though OTOH, it is an interesting bit of science and worth some discussion.
1 Like
Whoa â Iâm ashamed of Britannica for this one; that is vaguely worded indeed! âGreat uniformity is evident on a regional scaleâ does not mean the fields are contiguous!
Very few coal deposits show the features that would be expected from being deposited by any flood event; yes, there are beds that have silt and sand mixed in, but that is not always the case. Different deposits also have different chemistry as expected if the plants they formed from were of very different flora, plus deeper seams show definite evidence of having been under greater compression and for longer than shallower deposits.
This isnât quite geology 101, but itâs close.
âInconceivablyâ? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Your statements donât address anything in the article cited. This looks like an instance of applying a stock argument where it actually doesnât fit.
Both of which, IIRC, are absent from the Cambrian.
2 Likes
I look there every few days, and thereâs usually a spam thread that I flag.
The earliest species which seem to distinctly be closer to modern starfish or sea cucumbers (rather than being stem groups) look to be Ordovician.
1 Like
Noahâs flood was 300+ million years ago?
What is it about these deposits that you think indicate a recent global flood?
What are you talking about? The coal deposits date to 300+ million years ago. How does that align with YEC?
Also, what types of life do you think are in the Cambrian? Do you think there are mammals, insects, birds, lizards, dinosaurs, or even modern fish? If so, you clearly donât know what exists in the Cambrian.
There had already been billions of years of evolution prior to the Cambrian explosion.
And a time series for the position of continents (with N. American and Eurasia being together at the time periods of the coal beds):
3 Likes
Also, the amount of coal and oil could not be produced from a single event:
4 Likes
It aligns perfectly in the mind of a YEC ahderent. I sometimes have to remind myself of this where it makes perfect sense to them.
I would have been excited about such a deposit when I was a YEC because everything we discovered was proof that YECism was correct. In my YEC echo chamber the idea that all discoveries perfectly prove Noahâs flood or anti-evolution true was constantly reinforced to the point where it was so obvious to me. And, just like other pseudoscientific ideas, it was greatly empowering to see the obvious that all those scientists missed.
The laziest excuse (in terms of scientific rigor) that applies to everything is the âworldviewâ approach:
With propaganda like this, I could easily ram everything through my âbiblicalâ glasses. I guess it is also like Mortonâs Demon:
Copyright 2002, 2004 G.R. Morton. This can be freely distributed so long as no changes are made and no charges are made.
This article was originally posted on Talk Origins. Glenn Morton then posted it on his website.[1] It is provided here by permission of the author. Glenn Morton is a former young earth creationist, who has written for young earth organizations. This gives him a unique perspective into the world of young earth creationism.
Maxwell suggested a famous demon which could violate the laws of thermodynamics. The demon, sitting between two rooms, controls a gate between the two rooms. When the demon sees a speedy molecule coming his way (from room A), he opens the gate and lets the speedy molecule leave the room and when he sees a slow molecule coming at the gate (from room A), he holds it closed. Oppositely, when he sees a speedy molecule coming at the gate from room B he closes the gate but when he sees a slow molecule from room B coming toward the gate he opens it. In this way, the demon segregates the fast moving molecules into one room from the slow ones in the other. Since temperature of a gas is related to the velocity of the molecules, the demon would increase the temperature of room B and cool room A without any expenditure of energy. And since a temperature difference can be used to create useful work, the demon would create a perpetual motion machine.
Maxwellâs demon was shown to fail by Szilard who showed that the demon needed to use light (and expend energy) to determine a fast molecule from a slow one. This energy spent to collect information meant that the demon couldnât violate the 2nd law.
The reason I mention this is because I realized tonight that the YECs have a demon of their own. In a conversation with a YEC, I mentioned certain problems which he needed to address. Instead of addressing them, he claimed that he didnât have time to do the research. With other YECs, I have found that this is not the case (like with sds@mp3.com who refused my offer to discuss the existence of the geologic column by stating âItâs on my short list of topics to pursue here. Itâs not up next, but perhaps before too long.â Message-ID: a3bv4t$v2m$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net ) And with other YECs, they claim lack of expertise to evaluate the argument and thus wonât make a judgment about the validity of the criticism. Still other YECs refuse to read things that might disagree with them.
Thus was born the realization that there is a dangerous demon on the loose. When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwellâs demon did for thermodynamics. Mortonâs demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data. Fortunately, I eventually realized that the demon was there and began to open the gate when he wasnât looking.
However, my conversations have made me aware that each YEC is a victim of my demon. Mortonâs demon makes it possible for a person to have his own set of private facts which others are not privy to, allowing the YEC to construct a theory which is perfectly supported by the facts which the demon lets through the gate. And since these are the only facts known to the victim, he feels in his heart that he has explained everything. Indeed, the demon makes people feel morally superior and more knowledgeable than others.
The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view. The demon is better than a set of rose colored glasses. The demonâs victim does not understand why everyone else doesnât fall down and accept the victimâs views. After all, the world is thought to be as the victim sees it and the demon doesnât let through the gate the knowledge that others donât see the same thing. Because of this, the victim assumes that everyone else is biased, or holding those views so that they can keep their job, or, in an even more devious attack by my demon, they think that their opponents are actually demon possessed themselves or sons of Satan. This is a devious demon!
He can make people think that the geologic column doesnât exist even if one posts examples on the internet. He can make people believe that radioactive dating doesnât work even if you show them comparisons of tree rings compared to radiocarbon dating. He can make people ignore layer after layer of footprints and burrows in the geologic column (see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/burrow.jpg ) and believe that burrowing can occur and animals can walk around unimpeded during a global flood. He can make people think that the sun is shrinking, that the stars are all within 6000 light years of the earth, or that God made pictures in that light of events which never happened. He can make people believe that fossils arenât the remains of animals and are âpetrifactionsâ placed there by the devil. He can make people ignore modern measurements of continental motion, stellar formation, or biological speciation. He can make people believe that 75,000 feet of sediment over an area 200 by 100 miles can be deposited in a few hundred years, and he can make people believe that Noah trained animals to poop into buckets on command. He can make people deny transitional forms which have traits clearly halfway between two groups. This is a dangerous demon.
But one thing that those unaffected by this demon donât understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data. The victim doesnât know that he is the host to an evil parasite and indeed many of their opponents donât know that as well since the demon is smart enough to be too small to be seen.
But unlike Maxwellâs demon, Mortonâs demon doesnât expend any energyâhe gets his victim to expend it for him. He can get his victim to expend massive amounts of intellectual energy figuring out how to convince the world that they are wrong. The victim will spend hours reading supportive books or searching through scientific literature noting only those portions which support the YEC position. And the victim will spend lots of energy trying to convince others to come see things the way they do. Thus, the demon gets its victims to spend energy to help it spread the infection.
The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest. By making his victim be with those equally afflicted, the demon doesnât have to shut the door or even be watchful. This is because it allows the demon time to rest when all that is in the room is supportive data. For the victim, there is comfort in numbers even if they are few.
Those who try to help the poor victims escape the ravages of Mortonâs demon wear themselves out typing e-mails explaining data and facts which never get through the demonâs gate. After years of weariness, the philanthropic individual dies of fatigue. This is oh so devilish a situation!
6 Likes
Thanks for posting. I have time compare the news from Fox, CNN, and the like, and it is obvious Mortonâs demon is at work in our society in other spheres as well.
3 Likes